Search results for 'tag:Dialects tag:Subjunctives' matching tags 'Dialects' and 'Subjunctives'

Re: Native-speaker/native language

Tanit — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 13:03:57 GMT

Forbes

I remember listening to a radio programme about the varieties of forms of speech in Italy ... They simply change language like they change clothes without worrying about the status of their "home" speech.

There's some truth in that article. My parents, for instance, used to speak in Sardinian (not a dialect, but recognised as an endangered language by the UNESCO) when talking to each other or to their relatives, but they would only speak Italian with my brother and me. I grew up monolingual, and although I can understand Sardinian, I am unable to articulate a sentence that contains more than a few words!

Many people who speak both Italian and their dialect, although able to switch from the first to the second depending on the context, speak a form of Italian that I would classify as regional and sub-standard. I noticed that people from Southern Italy (I have little experience of Northern Italy) who speak also a dialect usually don't speak standard Italian, but a form of language deeply affected by their dialect. Accent is not an issue. I find some grammatical structures odd, as well as the choice of some verb modes, tenses and aspects (ex. past simple versus present perfect, indicative versus subjunctive), and have problems with some vocabulary (let alone idioms, of course). I am usually able to understand the general meaning, though.

Re: were late / would be late

Kooyeen — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:09:09 GMT

Oh my, I'm so surprised! I would never have thought you said it yourself! By the way, you said "If I'd have known", and not "If I'd known" (which can't mean "If I would have known", because you would be leaving out a syllable...).
Anyway, I'll tell you the truth: I've always thought it was non-standard, same register as "ain't". Low register, only common in certain dialects. I don't remember a single grammar book saying it was acceptable. In fact, I only remember people criticizing it. Here are a few comments like the ones I've always heard:

Also in the midwest, I often heard, "If I would have . . . ., I would have . . . . ." Drove me nutz! (Avangi)
http://www.englishforums.com/English/CondtitionalTense/zndwv/post.htm#482524

The construction, actually any construction with 'would' in a hypothetical if-clause, is considered non-standard. (Jim)
http://www.englishforums.com/English/HadHaveHad/chrcq/post.htm#201527

To me, it evokes comical people from remote mountain regions or from city slums who are uneducated and have some accent that most listeners dislike. But maybe research would reveal it to enjoy a wider demographic distribution. To my ear, it's about as obtrusively wrong and amusing as 'them' for 'those'. It's definitely not acceptable for standard written usage. On the other hand, it's not the most awful mistake one can make. (Native from San Diego)
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=97201#3

Would have for had - In spoken English, there is a growing tendency to use would have in place of the subjunctive had in contrary-to-fact clauses, such as If she would have (instead of if she had) only listened to me, this would never have happened. But this usage is still widely considered an error in writing. Only 14 percent of the Usage Panel accepts it in the previously cited sentence, and a similar amountâbut 16 percentâaccepts it in the sentence I wish you would have told me about this sooner. (A Practical and Authoritative Guide to Contemporary English)
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html

On the other hand, some people seem to use it all the time, regardless of region or cultural influences, and so it's a common feature of informal English to them. One example:

Hmmm...never thought of that construction as a mountain dialect but normal everyday American! I never knew it was incorrect! (Native from the Midwest)
http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=97201#5

That's why I was so surprised, considering you are a writer and knowing you use "correct" English most of the time. This can only mean two things now... I have to choose between:
1) I start to use it as well, feeling ashamed of not knowing is was so common.
2) I don't start to use it, and I start to tease you because it's not like you to speak bad English.

LOL, just kidding. Seriously, I don't know what to say. I think I'll consider the fact that people are actually more tolerant of it than I thought, so it's not that bad. But do you also use it in your writing? You know, just because I don't like prescriptive grammar, doesn't mean I don't want to know about it. In fact, prescriptive grammar is part of descriptive grammar.
I'll appreciate any opinions on this. Thanks.

Re: Verb Recommend+Infinitive forms

Yankee — Sun, 09 Mar 2008 12:47:35 GMT

Your American colleagues must all speak the same dialect, but the dialect they speak is apparently not the same as mine. What part of the US are your colleagues from?

- The doctor recommended (that) he lose weight. (lose = subjunctive)

- The doctor recommended losing weight.

- The doctor told/advised him to lose weight. (I would not use recommend in this construction, but I suppose some would.)

Re: Subjunctive

Kooyeen — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 14:02:58 GMT

I would just say the difference is:
If it was... (but it's not)
If it had been... (but it was not)

So it depends on the context and what you want to say... or how you want to say it.
Some people use the past instead of the subjunctive, like in "If I knew you were coming, I would have baked you a cake! (but I didn't know, so no cake, sorry)" - but I am not sure how to use those structures in an idiomatic way in those dialects, so I can't tell you more. Bush seems to use "knew" instead of "had known", for example.

if I were, if I was

Alienvoord — Tue, 06 Mar 2007 02:15:18 GMT

We have a rule, let's call it Rule W:

if clausesâthe traditional rules. According to traditional rules, you use the subjunctive to describe an occurrence that you have presupposed to be contrary to fact: if I were ten years younger, if America were still a British Colony. The verb in the main clause of these sentences must then contain the verb would or (less frequently) should: If I were ten years younger, I would consider entering the marathon. If America were still a British colony, we would all be drinking tea in the afternoon. When the situation described by the if clause is not presupposed to be false, however, that clause must contain an indicative verb. The form of verb in the main clause will depend on your intended meaning: If Hamlet was really written by Marlowe, as many have argued, then we have underestimated Marloweâs genius. If Kevin was out all day, then it makes sense that he couldnât answer the phone.

What is the origin of this rule?

Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage says (page 712):

...it can be seen that the subjunctive is likely to be found after the verb wish [...] after if, as if, and as though, and at the beginning of a clase or sentence stating something contrary to fact or hypothetical. Hall 1917 and Jespersen 1909-49 (vol. 4) observe that was began to compete with were in these contexts sometime around the end of the 16th century, but it apparently did not become frequent in this use until around the end of the 17th century.

MWCDEU makes no mention of "an occurrence that you have presupposed to be contrary to fact"; it just says that was and were are both used in hypothetical statements for the past 300 years. So where does Rule W come from? Is there still a dialect that makes a distinction between "if I were" and "if I was"? If there is, why doesn't MWCDEU mention it? Are the people who wrote Rule W using that dialect as a model, or are they just making stuff up?

Re: The past subjunctive in the past

Marvin A. — Fri, 29 Dec 2006 20:42:19 GMT

In my dialect, it's always "were". Anytime there's an "If I" + the verb "to be" it's gonna be "were" no matter what follows. I heard that usage was dying out in British English? Is that true? To me, "If I was" sounds quite incorrect.

Re: I wish I was/were there

Alienvoord — Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:58:02 GMT

No, I'm not a teacher.

As I've said before, I know that traditional grammar calls it the subjunctive. My point is that the distribution of the "if I were" form is very different from the "I demand that it be done" form. It makes sense, from a linguistic point of view, to give them different names. Someone who encountered English for the first time would probably put these two verb forms into two different categories.

The American Heritage Book of English Usage doesn't say that "if I was" is incorrect. It says that many writers use it even though it breaks the traditional rule.

"was" is not the subjunctive, it is the indicative. The fact is that indicative "was" started to supplant subjunctive or irrealis "were" in if-statements 300 or 400 years ago. In my dialect, there is no difference between "if I was" and "if I were" - except in one case: I say "if I were you" and not "if I was you."

Re: How can you tell whether someone is a non-native speaker?

MrPedantic — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 23:09:12 GMT

Julielai wrote:

Just out of curiosity, Mr. P, how do you distinguish a native speaker who's learned a non-standard form of English from a decent non-native speaker? (e.g. How can you tell if a speaker born in India, Singapore or other Asian countries is native?)

Hello Julie

I'm not sure I always could â sometimes I'm not sure whether a poster is speaking erratic non-native English, or a US dialect, for instance (especially if the erraticism resides in the modal verbs!).

But on the whole, non-standard natives make different mistakes from non-native standards. NSNs may be unusual in grammar, but they're usually strong in idiom. And a very good NNS will often hyper-correct (in the use of the subjunctive, for instance, or the past perfect).

(I'm speaking very theoretically here, though â merely spouting impressions!)

MrP

Re: A couple of questions about the subjunctive and hypotheticals

MrPedantic — Thu, 24 Nov 2005 00:02:36 GMT

1. She phoned to ascertain whether he were dining at the club.

2. He looked at me as if he suspected I were cheating on him.

3. If he were surprised, he didn't show it.

Only my opinion; but I would call these three examples incorrect in standard English. (Some rural BrE dialects use "were" for "was"; no doubt some AmE dialects do too.)

In #1, the error lies in using "were" after "whether": the clause is in effect a reported version of "is he dining at the club". (You sometimes find the same mistake after "ask if", "wonder if", etc.)

In #2, the error lies in using the subjunctive in a clause dependent on a subjunctive clause.

In #3, the error lies in using the past subjunctive in a clause that deals with the real past. (Cf. "If he were surprised, he wouldn't show it.")

I'd be interested to know the context of these examples, in the CGEL. (It may be that they were designed to show three common errors, for instance!)

MrP

Re: A couple of questions about the subjunctive and hypotheticals

Anonymous — Wed, 23 Nov 2005 12:58:42 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

Hello Jussive

I would say that the subjunctive is incorrect after in this instance, since "whether" presents one option of two:

1. She phoned to ascertain whether he was dining at the club (or not).

MrP

Well, I would have thought that the simple fact that she called to find out meant that we're dealing with real possibility and not hypothetical/counterfactual and therefore the subjunctive 'were' is incorrect.

These three examples come from the CGEL, apparently:

She phoned to ascertain whether he were dining at the club.

He looked at me as if he suspected I were cheating on him.

If he were surprised, he didn't show it.

I think it's a question of dialect, but, nonetheless, ascertaining the hypothetical/counterfactual from context doesn't just apply to modals and the unreal past.

Regards

Jussive