Search results for 'tag:Difference between tag:Intonations' matching tags 'Difference between' and 'Intonations'

Re: Mimicking an actor's accent

Kooyeen — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:27:59 GMT

Hi,
yes, I remember you asked about him. I'm not an expert at all, but I can tell you my opinion, as a learner.
I agree it's a good accent for those who are interested in British English. I don't find any annoying features in his accent (=features I don't like). It doesn't sound posh to me, his intonation seems to be normal and not exaggerated like in annoying posh accents.

3:54 - That is strange, yes. <-- Tapped T in "that is". I don't know how many accents have this feature and to what extent because I don't really know enough about British English.
3:57 - Yeah, that's a little weird <-- Glottal stops in "little". But they are not everywhere... either he's changing hir accent while he speaks, or those glottal stops are only found in certain special cases in his accent.
He doesn't release final T's. - Notice the difference between his final consonants and the hosts' ones, especially the woman's (the hosts sound like they overpronounce final consonants to me, since I'm mainly used to American English).

Just my non-native opinion, though. I don't know how difficult it is for a learner to pick up such an accent, because I don't know how widespread those kinds of accents are in the UK and in the media in general. Good luck.

Long instead of short vowels

Kooyeen — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:23:25 GMT

Hi,
I learned (and recognized) that in certain words (stressed syllables, in reality), the vowel is longer and on two steps of intonation when the syllable coda is voiced, otherwise it's short. In other words, I am just talking about the difference you can hear between GOT and GOD, for example. The second, "god", ends in a voiced consonant, and the AW vowel is longer, on two steps.

Now, I've always thought that "rule" had several exceptions. In fact, it seems to me I often hear long vowels when short vowels are expected. I tend to use long vowels in "this" and sometimes in "but", when followed by a pause, and that make it sound almost like "bud"... "I know I was wrong, bud... I think you were wrong too".

Now, what do you think about long vowels instead of short ones, when the syllable ends in an unvoiced sound? Here is an example, where COP is pronounced with a long vowel, or at least so it seems to me. If I didn't hear the final P clearly, I would probably take it to be COB. No need to watch all the video... The first sentence she says is the example:
Hi! Today we're gonna be talking about the difference between COP and CUP...

Re: Politeness using negative questions

Kooyeen — Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:25:00 GMT

CalifJim wrote:

Here's my take (exaggerated for illustrative purposes):
Don't you have some books for me?
is a reminder. It can be said with eagerness. You are supposed to have some books for me. You said you had some books for me, but I don't see them in your hands. Did you accidentally leave them in the car when you came in? I'll bet you did.
Don't you have any books for me?
is a statement of disappointment and a mild reprimand. It could be said as if pouting. You always bring me books when you visit. Why haven't you brought any this time? Don't you like me anymore?

Yes, those work too, in those contexts. The general meaining is that, then subtle variations depend on the context... and let's not forget intonation! You know, negative questions are not really a simple subject for a non-native, on second thought, LOL. But what's most important is that I understand, and that I've found out this difference between English and Italian that could have become dangerous.

Thank you so much again for your help.

Re: Any or some

Kooyeen — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:24:50 GMT

CalifJim wrote:
For example, all of the following are wrong:

Did everyone understand any questions?
Did you give both of them any help?
Are all of the employees expecting to take any vacation time during the coming week?

Aaaargh! This thread literally made me swear, lol. Darn some and any, they always give me trouble.

I think, the difference between some and any is not "any goes in questions, some in affirmative sentences", although that's exactly what most teachers teach...
I think the difference (in questions) is this:
- Do you have any books? = I want to know if you have at least a book. It is the most general.
- Do you have some books? = I want to know if it is true that you have some books. You are actually asking directly about "some books", that's why it's usually used when you expect a positive answer.

So I don't think adding "always", "everyone", etc. actually changes anything. It's just that using them with "any" might be unusual... I don't feel like thinking of a particular example where they could work together, but I guess some examples exist.

So when you ask "Does she always bring some flowers", the common context is one where you already know she sometimes brings some flowers, or she brought some at least one time. So you are actually asking if that is always true, you are asking about always, not the flowers or how many of them she brings:
- Does she always bring some flowers? = I want to know if it's true that she always brings some. (You are asking about "always")
- Does she always bring any flowers? = literally: I want to know if she always brings at least a flower (which is ok, but has a different meaning than the above version with "some". You are asking about the flowers)

Now, I'm afraid the version with "any" doesn't sound good because "always" is usually used in comparison with other expressions of time, so in the first example it's kind of like the opposite of "sometimes", and you are asking if she always brings flowers, knowing she sometimes does.

That's the way I interpret "some" and "any". And so I was really surprised to read this:

CalifJim wrote:
It seems to me that this observation with regard to always can be extended to include the presence of any universal quantifier whatsoever in the question, so that any use of always, everywhere, every, both, or all would likewise bar the use of any in the same question.

I said that "Does she always bring any flowers?" probably sounds pretty odd because of "always". But let's take "every", as an example. I think I could put "every" in there and make it sound good, with the same meaning of the version with "always":

"Does she bring any flowers every time she get back to LA?"

I think that's the normal way to say the odd "Does she always bring any flowers?"- But be careful with intonation, or you'll end up asking if that happens every time instead of asking about the flowers, and you'd need "some" instead.

What do you guys think of my insane theories?

Re: accents

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:19:50 GMT

Hi,

Uh, but what's the difference between accent and pronunciation?
We pronounce cerain words but we speak with an accent. Accents often include such things as an intonation and way how you connect words in your speech.

Proper? And how do you define proper?
Just make sure that you pronounce your sounds clearly and if you cannot do that than speak slowly.

so what accents "make speech inaccessible" for learners?
Native accents are generally hard to follow. Although they are Ok for most people if spoken slowly and without any "I bake choo a pie" things. Not all people have aptitude and enough time to learn the way how to pronoune these phrases.

OK. So what is this accent we should have when speaking properly and that would be easily understood by everyone, both natives and non-natives?
Clear (for example your 'l' sound can be dark, soft or even pelatilized but it should never sound like 'r') and slow speech with correct grammar will be allways understood.

Re: accents

Anonymous — Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:50:52 GMT

Cvilla wrote:
SillyMe wrote:
"You knew your brother did a bad thing, did you?"
"You knew your brother did a bad thing, did you?"

Is the difference between those two an accent matter, or a pronunciation matter?

Neither. The intonation is the key. You have used an intonation stress to emphasise those words in the sentences. It has nothing to do with an accent. A lot of languages have the same mechanism for this purpose. People rarely speak in a monotonic way. They need an intonation to emphasise their ideas.

You missed it, my friend. Intonation is part of an accent. And those specific intonation patterns I just showed you can be found in some languages, not all (you won't find it in Spanish, for example). Those patterns have a specific purpose, so there's reason for learning at least the "basics" of an accent.

I believe that I haven't missed anything. I think that you don't understand the concept clearly.I agree that (nothing new here) an intonation is one of the most important part of any accent. But in your example it is related to an empasis of some particular words to add a bit different meaning to your phrase (it is NOT an accent!). Usually it is done by changing a pitch of your voice at the right place. So, it has nothing to do with a concrete accent as we don't allways need to emphasize something, do we? But an intonation is used in every phrase. Every native speaker will do this if it is needed. On the other hand accents imply certain intonation patterns which add some kind of "melody" to the speech.
For example the Irish accents are characterised by frequent fluctuation of the pitch. To emphasisize some word an Irishman (like all other people) will just inrease the pitch of his voice to draw your attention to this word (He will change his usual intonation pattern). So, to conclude all accent have their own intonation patterns if you need to emphasize something (that is your example) you need to inrease a pitch at this place despite the accent you speak with.
Let's forget what I've just said. I've got a question: who needs this if nobody uses this? Accents are totally useless, since everybody uses his own pattern of speech and it is nearly impossible to learn how to speak with "right" intonation if you are quite old. Moreover nobody will be able to understand you anyway if you succeed, because not all people can hear and understand intonation. International English is just different from British and American English.
I hope you will get it.
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Re: accents

Cvilla — Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:12:45 GMT

SillyMe wrote:
"You knew your brother did a bad thing, did you?"
"You knew your brother did a bad thing, did you?"

Is the difference between those two an accent matter, or a pronunciation matter?

Neither. The intonation is the key. You have used an intonation stress to emphasise those words in the sentences. It has nothing to do with an accent. A lot of languages have the same mechanism for this purpose. People rarely speak in a monotonic way. They need an intonation to emphasise their ideas.

You missed it, my friend. Intonation is part of an accent. And those specific intonation patterns I just showed you can be found in some languages, not all (you won't find it in Spanish, for example). Those patterns have a specific purpose, so there's reason for learning at least the "basics" of an accent.

Re: accents

SillyMe — Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:32:36 GMT

"You knew your brother did a bad thing, did you?"

"You knew your brother did a bad thing, did you?"

Is the difference between those two an accent matter, or a pronunciation matter?

Neither. The intonation is the key. You have used an intonation stress to emphasise those words in the sentences. It has nothing to do with an accent. A lot of languages have the same mechanism for this purpose. People rarely speak in a monotonic way. They need an intonation to emphasise their ideas.

If your friends have a hard time understanding you when you start speaking with a "stupid" accent, then you need to analyze if you're really learning the target accent or not. It's not the accent's fault. How can it be?

Ok, Iâll say it again: I am not learning an accent. I just made sure that everyone could understand me. All people have different abilities in languages. I donât want to make anyone feel inconvenient when they are listening to me. My goal is to speak as accessible as possible for EVERYONE. I see accents as the main obstacle on this way.

Now, accents are part of a culture... be it in a country or in regions of that country. It may seem useless to you, but learning the american accent has given me the ability of having great conversations with many many americans. What about british people? They have no problem understanding americans, so I'm sure they'll have no problem understanding me... and I have spoken with british people, too. No communication issues.

I have never spoken to people whose first language was English and I donât think that Iâll ever do. English is the second language for most people. Why should I make my speech inaccessible for them? If I know that their level will not allow them to understand even a half of my speech, why should I? Language is a great tool to convey your ideas, why should I make it more complex and inaccessible?

LOL! This one made me smile! They are not speaking fast, it's that you are listening too slowly.

I have never said that I was a slow listener. But most people used to complain to me that speech of native speakers was hard to understand. Well, their (not natives) language might be poor, but anyway I am trying to sound easy to for them and for everyone in general.

To be understood by Americans... well, chances are you need to learn American English to understand Americans

I donât think so. I have never spoken to an American. I watch only dubbed films and like them that way. I donât listen to contemporary music, I like classical music. So, I think American English isnât present in my life.

The same applies for americans: how can I tell them that they don't know how to speak their own language?

They actually do. They are natives and they know it better. But unfortunately a spoken language is totally different from a written one to some extent of course. An accent is one of the main things that make this difference bigger. Why should one learn it, if nobody uses a spoken language (of course you have American friends, your situation might be a bit different or you live there, I donât know)? Most foreigners communicate using a written language. Thatâs why I want to speak slowly and without any reduction in my words.

Re: Comma, really?

MrPedantic — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 23:39:40 GMT

1. 'There are other problems, too.'

2. 'There are other problems too.'

I would find a slight difference between the two versions. In #1, the intonation (descending from "other" to "problems") and the pause before "either" would suggest "judiciousness". In #2, on the other hand, the intonation (on the level in "other problems", rising to "too") and the lack of a pause would suggest "slight anxiety".

(Presumably Clarkson would prefer to appear "judicious".)

MrP

Re: Unreleased final consonants

CalifJim — Sat, 21 Jul 2007 03:39:12 GMT

If you say Bob as Bo-buh, bod as bo-duh, bop as bo-puh, and bot as bo-tuh, you will be doing a stereotypical Italian accent.

Oh, yes! You got it!

-- What's a bigamist?
-- A lot of fog.

there's not much difference between:
Bot / Bop
Bod / Bob

It's very difficult to quantify "much difference", but I'd say you're right. There's a difference, but not much.

The first pair can be distinguished from the second by the vowel length (longer vowel and on two levels of intonation if the syllable ends with a voiced consonant).

That's a reasonable description. The unvoiced consonants have the effect of clipping the vowel sound before the mouth forms the final consonant; the voiced consonants allow voicing to continue right through the end of the word including the time it takes to form the mouth into the shape of the final consonant. In the case of the voiced finals, you can sound the full consonant - just don't go beyond it to form another vowel after it! You can practice by doing the stereotypical Italian accent first, then reduce that final vowel by whispering it instead of saying it aloud. From there you can probably slip into not even whispering it.

CJ