Search results for 'tag:Expressions tag:Indirect questions' matching tags 'Expressions' and 'Indirect questions'

confused about 'would'

New2grammar — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 08:10:33 GMT

I know 'would' carries many meanings. My problem is sometimes I find it difficult to tell which meaning the speaker uses. I think I understand its hypothetical usage, and in some contexts, its politeness usage. Below is a post that has several woulds I have trouble interpreting. I also copied a post on would by CalifJim for reference.

Your analysis is good. Context will determine if you're using the expression as an excuse to break off what you're doing. If you're calling the people you expect to meet, then you would (1)tell them the truth. You can say, "I'll be about five minutes late," or "I may be a little late." If you're speaking to someone who is about to make you late for an appointment, the expression would(2) mean, "Hey, I'm gonna be late if I don't split right now!" If you just say, "I'm gonna be late," you probably would(3) have already tipped the person off that you would(4) need to end the conversation soon, and as you suggest, you would(5) still expect to be on time if you left immediately.

1) I don't thing politeness is the intended meaning here. To my ear, it carries the meaning of preference.

2) would here means possible? I have zero confidence in this one.

3) it doesn't look like hypothetical usage to me because the if clause is in present tense

4) and 5) should follow the same reasoning for #3, whatever that is.

Please help! Thanks in advance!

CalifJim's explanation on would
Yes. I thought maybe that's what you were referring to.
would in an if clause is possible when the would or the entire if-clause is part of a formula of politeness. if you would be so kind is a typical example of if with would in a "politeness phrase". This formula is equivalent to please. This sort of if-clause does not even have to be classified as a true conditional even though it contains the word if.

The phrase would like as a polite way of saying want, and it too can appear in an if-clause. Note that the idiom would like counts as a present tense for purposes of tense combinations. That is, it may combine with the imperative or the future. The idiom would rather has the same property.

If you would like to have dinner with us tomorrow, please call and let us know before noon.
I'm sure that if he'd like to go with us, he'll tell us. (If he would like to go, he will tell us.)
If you'd rather wait until tomorrow, [just say so / I'll understand].

if-clauses that are part of an indirect question structure are also exempt from the rule about combining if and would:

I wonder if he would object to this procedure.
I don't know if I would agree.
We had not decided if we would go along with the plan.

With the exception of the indirect question structure, which is quite common, these are just a very, very small number of situations where if and would occur in the same clause. The main rule for 99.99% of cases is 'never' to place if and would together!

Re: did I / can I/ have I in affirmative clauses

Tanit — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 12:08:35 GMT

Hi Giuseppe, and welcome!

The structure you're referring to is called "inversion."

Your examples fall into a singular category (that of negative/restrictive expression) which includes other expressions, such as barely, scarcely, hardly, seldom, little, never, under no circumstances, at no time, etc (there are many more!)

Besides in direct questions, inversion is also used:

In short tags. "I like it!" "So do I"
In formal/emphatic conditional sentences: "Should you need further information, please call ..."
When expressing wishes starting with may: "May you find what you're searching for."
Sometimes in indirect questions, especially when the subject is too long (cannot think of an example right now, sorry!)
Sometimes (quite literary) after as, so, than: "She was very pretty, as were her sisters."

There can be other circumstances in which inversion occurs; these are the ones that came to my mind.

As for your examples, I think the first one needs a past simple because you've got a time reference (Only yesterday did I realise...). I also would put an object (it) after repeat.

I'm not a native either, so you'd probably better wait for one of them.

Re: Question mark needed?

Kooyeen — Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:15:42 GMT

I think I've never seen a question mark in those kind of sentences... non natives maybe put it at the end. Maybe natives do too, but because they can't write, not because they don't know English and can't speak.

Pucca wrote:
I wouldn't put the question mark either, but, if that makes the speech more informal, why not? I think, the English we learn from the schools or academies will sound weird to the natives once you go to that country..I got to that point because once I read here that 'in my opinion' was a bit weird, it surprized me since I was taught to use that one much earlier than 'I reckon', but, I gave it up more or less.

Yes, that's true, that's why I always want answers from a descriptive point of view, and I want to try to focus even more on spoken English. Most ESL student focus too much on grammar rules and written English. That's why among ESL students you find a lot of grammar geniuses how can hardly speak and often come out with very odd or overly formal expressions. This is mostly teachers' fault anyway... everything is test-oriented, so if you say "If I were..." you'll get a "Good boy, here's a cookie", if you say "I'm gonna..." you'll only get a "That's a bad boy, bad boy..."

But this is another matter, native speakers don't pronounce indirect questions as direct questions, as far as I know.

Re: Is/Will

Elida — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 19:08:10 GMT

CalifJim wrote:
we can't use "will" after "when"..
Not true. We can't use will after when if when is an adverbial conjunction of time, that is, if it tells when something happens. We can use will after when if when simply introduces an indirect question, typical after expressions like I don't know or I can't guess or I have no idea.

In the case above, the when clause when he will come does not tell us when 'I don't know'. 'I don't know' at all times, or in general. My lack of knowledge is not restricted to the moment in time described by the when clause. It's an indirect question. When will he come? I don't know.

CJ

Understand.

Re: Is/Will

CalifJim — Sun, 07 Jan 2007 18:30:59 GMT

we can't use "will" after "when"..

Not true. We can't use will after when if when is an adverbial conjunction of time, that is, if it tells when something happens. We can use will after when if when simply introduces an indirect question, typical after expressions like I don't know or I can't guess or I have no idea.

In the case above, the when clause when he will come does not tell us when 'I don't know'. 'I don't know' at all times, or in general. My lack of knowledge is not restricted to the moment in time described by the when clause. It's an indirect question. When will he come? I don't know.

CJ

Re: Conditional (bis)

just the truth — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:15:01 GMT

1) Would you please help me finish these clauses ?

a) If you were to give him a chanceâ¦
b) If you were to fail â¦

c) Would it be possible to use the indicative âIf you ARE â¦â in the above clauses ? What difference would it make?

JTT: It's theoretically possible but the more common use is, "If you give him ..." ; "If you fail ..."

==============

2) How can I make a polite request using âIf + will or wouldâ?

If you will / would â¦.

JTT: Both are polite, more so than .

If you would [be so kind as to] {do something}.

, being less polite, is often used when you ask someone to do something while you, at the same time will do something.

If you'll help me with my move, I'll help you with yours.

=================

4) If our documents had been in order we could have left at once. (âcouldâ here expresses ability or permission or both ?)

JTT: means "possiblity"; it would have been possible. There could be {it's possible} that there is an element of permission in there.

==============

5) Why do we use the subjunctive in one sentence and the indicative in the other ?

a) If I WERE riding a bicycle I would be much happier.
(difference with âIf I WAS riding a bicycleâ¦â?)

b) If my car WAS working I could / would drive you to the station. (difference with âmy car WERE workingâ¦â?)

JTT: ENLs use both forms because both forms have identical meanings. The subjunctive is a remnant of an older system. All subjunctive forms have other forms tha perform the same semantic task. There are differences in levels of formality. For all that is required to form a "subjunctive meaning" is a past tense FORM.

=================

6) Do sentences a) + b) have the same meaning ?

a) If he had been able to see it clearly, he would remember it better. (now)

b) If he could see it clearly, he would remember it better.

c) If he had been able to see it clearly, he would have remembered it better. (then)

I donât like these examples because their meaning is not clear, would you have better examples of this kind ?

JTT: Examples a) & c) could have the same meaning, could both refer to the same situation. The focus is just slightly different. Let's do an example to illustrate.

If I were Hela, I would be female. {my focus on the state of being a female}

If I were Hela, I would have been born a female/in Greece/to Mr & Mrs {___}.

{here my focus has shifted to your birth}

As you can see, Hela, the style chosen depends upon the context, what it is that you want to say.

================

7) a) Are the future and the conditional incompatible with the following expressions ?

unless, except if, provided/providing that, on condition that, as/so long as, suppose/supposing that, what if, in case, if only.

b) would you please give me examples with âexcept ifâ?

JTT: At first blush, I don't see why not, Hela, but feeding you examples won't, to my mind be as worthwhile as you making some of your own. That way it will be easier to spot mistakes and rectifiy them.

c) Is it true that âunlessâ cannot be used in Type 2 conditional and in indirect questions?

What about: âI would not attempt â¦ (what can I say here ?) unless I were sure of succeeding.â ?

JTT: Again, I don't see why "unless" can't be used. There may be some specific reasons for some circumstances.

âI would not attempt it unless I were sure of succeeding.â

âI would not attempt â¦ (what can I say here ) unless I were sure of succeeding.â

JTT:

You can say almost anything here, Hela; language is about the infinite.

Conditional (bis)

hela — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:21:10 GMT

Dear teachers,

As usual, I'll ask many questions in one post but you can, of course, answer them at your convenience.

1) Would you please help me finish these clauses ?

a) If you were to give him a chanceâ¦
b) If you were to fail â¦

c) Would it be possible to use the indicative âIf you ARE â¦â in the above clauses ? What difference would it make?

2) How can I make a polite request using âIf + will or wouldâ?

If you will / would â¦.

3) What do you call the mood/tense (?) that follows âwouldâ in the following sentences ?

a) If the Queen died, she would BE SUCCEEDED by her son Charles. (Bare infinitive + past participle ?)

b) If I were rich I would BE LYING in the sun on a tropical island. (Bare infinitive + present participle ??)

c) If it had rained yesterday, there wouldnât HAVE BEEN many people on the sea shore. (perfect infinitive)

d) If I had not got married, I would still HAVE BEEN LIVING abroad. (perfect infinitive + present participle ??)

4) If our documents had been in order we could have left at once. (âcouldâ here expresses ability or permission or both ?)

5) Why do we use the subjunctive in one sentence and the indicative in the other ?

a) If I WERE riding a bicycle I would be much happier.
(difference with âIf I WAS riding a bicycleâ¦â?)

b) If my car WAS working I could / would drive you to the station. (difference with âmy car WERE workingâ¦â?)

6) Do sentences a) + b) have the same meaning ?

a) If he had been able to see it clearly, he would remember it better. (now)

b) If he could see it clearly, he would remember it better.

c) If he had been able to see it clearly, he would have remembered it better. (then)

I donât like these examples because their meaning is not clear, would you have better examples of this kind ?

7) a) Are the future and the conditional incompatible with the following expressions ?

unless, except if, provided/providing that, on condition that, as/so long as, suppose/supposing that, what if, in case, if only.

b) would you please give me examples with âexcept ifâ?

c) Is it true that âunlessâ cannot be used in Type 2 conditional and in indirect questions?

What about: âI would not attempt â¦ (what can I say here ?) unless I were sure of succeeding.â ?

Thank you for your patience and understanding!
Best regards,
Hela

Re: "No future tense in time clause"

CalifJim — Wed, 08 Sep 2004 05:03:20 GMT

Never use "will" in the clause where you use "while/when/before/after/by the time/as soon as/if/unless".

1. "Never" is a strong word!

2. Since 'if' and 'unless' do not introduce time clauses, we can't conclude that only time clauses are included in the "rule" - only that the "rule" applies to certain subordinate adverbial clauses, usually, but not always, related to temporal relations. The list of subordinating conjunctions given is representative, but not complete.

3. "will" is not the only word not to be used in the subordinate clause in these cases. A more complete list is "will", "would", and "going to".

4. Examples:

Helen won't go unless Bill goes, too.
Helen won't go unless Bill will go, too. :(

Keep reading until you reach the end of the paragraph.
Keep reading until you're going to reach the end of the paragraph. :(

I'd better mail these packages before I forget.
I'd better mail these packages before I will forget. :(

Larry and Peter said they would stop by after they bought the tickets.
Larry and Peter said they would stop by after they would buy the tickets. :(
They would stop by after they had bought the tickets.
They would stop by after they would have bought the tickets. :(

5. Exceptions.
a. The rule does not apply to "when" as a question word.

When will you be home from work tonight?
When is Cheryl going to buy the car she likes so much?

b. The rule does not apply to "when" or "if" when they introduce an indirect question. (In these sentences, "whether" can replace "if".)

No one knows when an earthquake will occur.
I didn't know if I would feel like eating that early.
We needed to find out if George would help us.

c. The rule is relaxed after "before" in certain idiomatic expressions of will, i.e., willingness or willfulness -- expressions which combine volition with futurity. Note that there is sometimes a shade of exasperation expressed by the speaker. Both elements of the pairs shown are acceptable (in my opinion) in casual speech.

I've finally stopped the children from fighting,
but it won't be long before they'll be at it again.
but it won't be long before they're at it again.

Janice got in a car accident when she ran a red light.
It will be a long while before she'll try that again.
It will be a long while before she tries that again.

Ken gave me very bad advice,
but it was a long time before he would admit he was wrong.
but it was a long time before he admitted he was wrong.

It will be a cold day before I'll let my daughter marry that man!
It will be a cold day before I let my daughter marry that man!