Search results for 'tag:Expressions tag:Word order' matching tags 'Expressions' and 'Word order'

Re: Position of "at least"

Cool Breeze — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 21:35:29 GMT

Clive wrote:

Please at least inform us of the present situation.
Please inform us of at least the present situation.
Please inform us of the present situation at least.
At least please inform us of the present situation.

I wouldn't say any of these are incorrect, although #2 would be less common..

Hi Clive

I am slightly surprised at your reply. I'm not saying I disagree; what surprises me is the fact that you don't say anything about the meaning of the sentences. They don't all mean the same thing to me but I'm not sure whether this is due to the influence of Finnish word order on my thinking or not.

As I understand the first sentence, The minimum that is requested is information about the present situation. In the second sentence the minimum is information about the present situation. (Information about other things would probably also be appreciated.) The third sentence has the same meaning to me. In the last sentence at least seems to modify the entire clause.

Please correct me if my thinking is wrong and there are no such differences. In that case it's impossible to convey such nuances in English - at least it's impossible using the expression at least.

Cheers
CB

Re: net effect

CalifJim — Fri, 21 Dec 2007 21:23:47 GMT

What does "net effect" mean? (Note the word order.)

It's the final effect resulting from a combination of many different effects, some of which add to the final effect, some of which detract from it.

It's the final result after all the positive and negative components are combined.

A similar expression is "net pay". On your paycheck you have a gross amount, based on your stated salary, and a net amount, which is the gross amount minus taxes and other deductions. The net amount is also called net pay.

CJ

Re: Proficiency alongside "poverty".

Cool Breeze — Sun, 22 Jul 2007 23:02:24 GMT

Hi Forbes

Thank you for your long reply. I do appreciate it. I would just like to say that I my opinion is based on the knowledge I have of the Germanic and Romance languages and it is of course very subjective. I fully understand that not everyone agrees with me and what I consider easy may be difficult for some others as I have already said. However, I have given my honest opinion and I don't think you or anybody else would want me to lie on this forum? I'll add some comments.

I thought that might be what you were getting at.

I think it is a mistake to equate complexity solely with the degree of inflectional morphology of a language. I agree. I was talking about morphology only. To my mind I made no mistake. I do know what is difficult about English.

I have never studied Finnish, but I would be willing to bet that at least one of the following is true:

1. that a language with at least 30 cases has a corresponding lack of prepositions

There are only about 15 cases in Finnish - I don't actually remember the exact number and didn't bother to check, but we always
have a different form for the plural and that explains the 30. It is true that Finnish has fewer prepositions than English. In my opinion the number of changes made to words and the number of inflections cause far more difficulties for nonnative learners than the number of English prepositions, though..

2. that word order is fairly free and is used to express different emphases Correct.

3. that the inflectional morphology, though complex, is regular Correct again. Someone has said that there are ten rules in English grammar and 10,000 exceptions and 10,000 rules in Finnish grammar and ten exceptions. That's not quite true, though.

4. that it is perhaps not quite so difficult to learn once you begin to get the hang of it That is a matter of opinion and dispute. Quite a few nonnatives have said it is very difficult. They say it is hopeless to try and master the grammar from books. There may or may not be some truth in this. The number of "rules" must seem endless to some and people say it's a better idea not to worry too much about all the inflections and changes in the middle of the words but just go where people talk and learn the grammatical complexities by ear.

I have to say that I have met one or two Finns and they do seem to relish the idea that Finnish is a "difficult" language. I have also met some "Swedish Finnish" (I am not sure what the correct term is) and they all tell me that they are bilingual in Swedish and Finnish. They will of course have been helped in acquiring Finnish because either they live in a bilingual community or started to learn the language at an early age (I am not sure how it works) so they would not have been prejudiced by any concept of "difficulty". I expect that your idea that Finnish is difficult is confirmed by the fact that you do not know many foreigners living in Finland who have mastered it. This will be because:

1. It is more difficult to learn any language when you are an adult That is true about all languages.

2. Someone who is working full time will not be able to devote more than an hour or two a week to learning the language That is true about all languages.

3. Everyone will find it more convenient to speak to foreigners in English and there is therefore little incentive for them to learn Finnish There is a lot of truth in this. However, there are lots of people who have come to Finland for good and want to learn the language.

4. You keep harping on about how difficult the language is and put them off! I have spoken to Brits in Finland who say the opposite. They say they get encouraged in their efforts to speak Finnish. I don't think we are any better or worse than other people in this respect.

(I live in Spain and all the above applies to expats.)

You think that English is "simple". I venture to suggest that this is because you started to learn it at an early age and were introduced to it gradually so that you did not perceive its difficulties; you acquired your mastery over a long period. Also, I suspect that Finns are "subjected" to English in a way that the English are not subjected to foreign languages. A lot can be learned without realising it.

No. I have perceived its difficulties all right. They are the spelling and the idioms and the exceptions, for me anyway. The grammar, as I understand it, and structure are the easiest of the languages I am familiar with. Mind you, I don't pretend to be perfect in English. Actually, I don't think I deserve the icon, or whatever is the right word, that says I have a good grasp of the language. I would say I have a good grasp of the grammar but my vocabulary isn't at all on a par with native speakers. My knowledge of idioms and colloquialisms could also be much better.

Consider the following:

There is no single way of negating verbs in English. I do not eat, but I must not. I do not have any eggs, but I have not got any eggs.

There is no single way of forming questions. Do you come here a lot? but Can I go out?

True. And a third way: Who came? What happened?

It is not always easy to know when to use the continuous form of the verb. Try and explain why you can say Are you having cakes for tea? but cannot go into a shop and say Are you having cakes?

The meaning of prepositional verbs is not always transparent. John has got it in for me.

English is a highly analytic language and meaning is often derived from context:

A. You keep complaining. Have you got it in for me?

B. I asked you to bring in the shopping. Have you got it in for me?

These are just a tiny example of the complexities of English and they have nothing to do with inflectional morphology.

I am familiar with these things and I admit I make mistakes using expressions and tenses. However, I was referring to the fact that English words have only a handful of forms and the fewer inflections there are the easier it is to learn them. Using them correctly is indeed another thing, I agree with you there. Other languages have their "difficulties" too. I admit that English is difficult, at least for me, in this respect. No language is easy in every respect, or if there is one, then it is impossible to express nuances in that language.

As I said in my previous post, what is easy for some may be difficult for others. My views are based solely on my experience and I certainly don't expect everybody to agree with me.

Cheers

Re: Word Order - "There ARE EVEN many people..." or "There EVEN ARE many...

Cool Breeze — Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:37:37 GMT

As a rule, you can safely put even before the word/expression it qualifies:

Even he bought a book.
He even bought a book.
He bought even a book.

CB

Re: If only you knew how much I loved you

CalifJim — Thu, 05 Apr 2007 04:43:24 GMT

Eeuw! Melted brains are so unsightly!

You said that "loved" can refer to the present. Can it also refer to the past

Yes. There is always an end to the backshift process -- the point where you run out of tenses that refer to an even more distant point in time! In this case I wouldn't feel comfortable going even as far as the past perfect. If only you knew how much I had loved you is just a bit quirky, I think. With the main clause in the past perfect, it sounds all right to me, though here the subordinate clause is not backshifted any more than in your original example.

If only you had known how much I loved you.

CJ

Note: The word order for this expression with "know" is more likely to be If you only knew, at least where I live, at least used alone, as follows.

-- You seem tired. Did you have a rough night?
-- If you only knew.

CJ

English influence on other languages

Cool Breeze — Sat, 03 Mar 2007 21:56:36 GMT

Hi all

It would be interesting to hear from nonnative speakers of English in particular what influence English exerts on other languages nowadays. What English words and expressions are used in your language? Does English grammar or syntax have an influence on your native language? Where is this influence seen or heard? Books? Journalese? Advertising? Conversation?

Are Anglicisms frowned upon in your language or generally accepted? Of course I welcome replies from native speakers as well, anything you think worth mentioning.

English and Finnish are not related and thus the idea of English grammar exercising an influence on Finnish grammar is all but inconceivable. In advertising, some English expressions are commonly used, for example happy hour is often seen in bars and pubs and some people use it even when they speak Finnish.

CafÃ© is the word often seen outside coffee houses or cafeterias, but no one uses the word when they speak Finnish. Finnish is a highly inflected language and cafÃ© just doesn't lend itself easily to our inflection patterns, which may be the reason people never use the word in conversation.

Some yongsters have adopted the non-Finnish way to read decimals: two point five. I don't mean they say it in English, they just use the Finnish word for point, which is incorrect in Finnish. We don't have a decimal point, we have a decimal comma (2,5). Pocket calculators and computer programmes are probably chiefly to blame for this phenomenon.

There is at least one Finnish Eurosport tennis commentator who uses the English word order when he says thirty all. In Finnish the numeral should come last.

If I realise I have forgotten something important, I'll write another post later. Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to your contributions.
Thank you.

CB

Re: [discuss]what are the diffcuitlites of learning a foeign language?

spinnaker — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 19:36:32 GMT

I have problems with the pronunciation and with the style of the whole language. For me, it is especially in English a problem to make a correct sentence, with the correct word order and so on... Also the right way of expression...

btw: do you know how I can this practise?

Re: how to link adjectives

Yankee — Sun, 24 Dec 2006 10:29:14 GMT

Hi Hela
My comments are in the quote.

Hela wrote:
1) When we have a couple adjectives describing the same thing (e.g. material) don't we list them in alphabetical order? No

- a Concrete and Glass building That was your word order. You could also say "a glass and concrete building" or " a building built mainly of glass and concrete", etc.
- a peanut Butter and Jelly sandwich
To me, peanut butter always and only begins with a 'P'.

But it's true that you've written "a gorgeous Silk and Satin dress".

2) Would the use of a comma change the meaning of a noun phrase?

a) a polite young man = a man who is polite and young.

   a tall white horse = a horse which is tall and white.

b) a polite, young man = a young man who is polite.

   a tall, white horse = a white horse which is tall.
Or do they all have, in the end, the same meaning? The comma does not change the meaning in these examples. It's simply unnecessary.

3) Would you please tell me if the following sentences are correct (= make sense)?

1. The weather was foul and depressing. OK
2. He is a happy and confident child. OK -- and you could also say "He is a happy, confident child." (i.e., The comma would be appropriate.)
3. Her expression was cold and enigmatic. OK

4. She has long rounded legs. (possible?) OK (with a comma is also possible but not absolutely necessary IMHO.) 'Rounded' is OK.

5. She bought a bronze and crystal centre light. OK

6. The Mercedes is a powerful and secure car. OK -- but "safe" is a better word than "secure"

7. They were laying a green and black carpet in the hotel lobby. OK

8. They ordered a set of metal and plasticchairs. The chairs are hard for me to picture or imagine, so the adjectives aren't doing their job very well. I'd prefer a different method of description. For example, "... metal chairs with plastic trim."

9. The police got hold of cargo of foul and rotting meat. To me, "foul " would describe "rotting meat" so I'd prefer this wording: "...a cargo of foul rotting meat."

10. He played the wrong note. Did you intend to include an additional adjective?

11. He has thick arched black eyebrows. I don't like this combination very much. I'd eliminate 'arched' and reword somehow. If I weren't allowed to remove 'arched' from the string of adjectives, I'd probably write: "He has arched, thick black eyebrows."
12. He is going to fall asleep in the next ten minutes. OK
13. The old wooden roof of the church didnât resist (?) the storm.   "The old wooden roof of the church didnât withstand / survive the storm."

14. During the first three days after the surgery I felt really bad. OR --> "For the first three days after the surgery, I felt really bad."

15. The model walked down the podium with an elegant classy fur coat. "The model walked down the runway/catwalk/ramp with an elegant fur coat". (To me, using both classy and elegant is redundant.)

(what's the verb used to talk about models "parading" in a fashion show?)
It depends on the "attitude" the model assumes -- there are a variety of possible types of walking. I guess 'sashay' would often be a good word. Here are some possibilites:
The model sashayed/paraded/strutted/strolled/catwalked/swung/moseyed down the runway.

I look forward to the answer that will be given to Downstorm.

Many thanks and Merry Christmas to you all. Happy holidays to you too, Hela.

Hela

the present I wished / hoped for

Pastsimple — Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:32:03 GMT

Hi,

I've used this phrase without thinking in a conversation today:

...the present I wished for...

Is this "expression" common and natural? What about "the present I hoped for"? Are there any other ways of saying the same thing?

Thanks.

P.S. Is the word order in my first sentence natural? To be honest, I'm not quite sure.

Re: word order in indirect speech

CalifJim — Wed, 27 Sep 2006 23:34:05 GMT

What is the matter? This asks for the subject

I reject this premiss. It doesn't ask for the subject. And (surprise, surprise!) it doesn't really ask for the complement either. It's an idiomatic expression that says "Talk to me about what is bothering you" or "Tell me the problem". The answer is a complete sentence that does not use the word matter at all.

-- What's the matter?
-- I failed my exam.

-- What's the matter?
-- I can't get this key to open the safe.

So the question is how matter could be used in the answer if you had to. I suggest that either form is possible:

The matter is that I failed my exam.
That I failed my exam is the matter.

The matter is that I can't get this key to open the safe.
That I can't get this key to open the safe is the matter.

The first in each pair is the usual order, so I'd say the original question asks for the complement, if pressed to decide. Nonetheless, the ambivalence here is reflected in the use of both forms in indirect speech.

asked what the matter was / asked what was the matter

Given my preference above, of course here I prefer asked what the matter was.

CJ