Search results for 'tag:Gerunds tag:Genitives' matching tags 'Gerunds' and 'Genitives'

Re: gerund or verbal noun with an article?

Cool Breeze — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 10:35:17 GMT

Crokey
how do you feel about possessives before a gerund? "John's singing bothered me". You are constantly told that the possessive should be used before a gerund(unless you are saying something weird and you wish to emphasise the subject of the gerund).

I have given my opinion in an earlier post. Page 1 of this thread offers you a link to it (subject of gerund). As the gerund fluctuates between being a noun and a verb and resembles both to some extent, it stands to reason that a genitive is often possible before it and so is an adjectival attribute - at least in your example.

I don't really care what the ing-form is called in each case. I'm not obsessed with terminology. If anyone thinks the gerund is a complete noun, he should explain why the gerund can have a passive form:

He enjoys being seen in my company.

I would like to see the passive forms of other nouns, like a girl or courage, for example.

Re: gerund or verbal noun with an article?

Cool Breeze — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:52:40 GMT

Crokey

"the singing of the bird awoke me" or "the singing of the bird's awoke me" ? as "a friend of my uncle's", where you use the post-genitive form.

You're welcome! I'll start watching the US Open (tennis) on TV in a moment but before that:

You can say: He is a friend of John, or: He is a friend of John's.

You cannot say: He is the friend of John's, except perhaps in some extremely rare cases where normal grammatical rules don't apply.

Similarly, the singing of the bird's is ungrammatical; you have to say the singing of the bird.

Re: gerund or verbal noun with an article?

Crokey — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:54:22 GMT

hi cb,
im so happy i joined this forum now, because i think your comment about verbal nouns can be modified by an adjectival attribute. You said it your previous reply, but i must have missed it(it was nearly 4am in korea when i read it!), and i think the tiresome banging of the nail's head is well and truly finished! On further research, the naming of other nouns derived from verbs, such as survival from survive or action from act, is a fairly contentious area, and i am going to take a leaf from your book, and stay the bloody-hell away from it!!! Just one other question CB,

"the singing of the bird awoke me" or "the singing of the bird's awoke me" ? as "a friend of my uncle's", where you use the post-genitive form. I would say "the bird's singing", there is probably a clear case, but after my ordeal with gerunds and verbal nouns i'm afraid to go searching now. Before the gerunds and verbal nouns i had a encounter with absolute phrases and some very confusing definitions of what differs it from participles, thankfully that is behind me now also. In that example of "the bird's singing awoke me"(just to make sure the nail doesn't spontaneously pop back up) is "singing"a gerund, because it is possible to say "the bird's loud singing awoke me", with singing modified by an adjective.

cheers again cb, really grateful.

Re: Grammar rules - check for correctness - a kind teacher please :)

Angle1 — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:30:38 GMT

Here are some examples

The main point is to explain the correct answer
The sentences are little-bit childisch ;they are some modified sentences. I am afraid that my explanations seems to be a little childisch, too. So please help me how to turn it into the right explanation.

Mary was real angry because Jack didnÂ´t show up

Real >> really - we use an adverb to determine the adjective

Fewer of the passangers is sick today

Fewer >> One - the verb is refers to singular, so we need to use singular pronoun

I asked my brother whom was on the phone

Whom >> who â Whom i sused in object case and with pronouns â we need a subject for the verb in the second clause

Jorge doesnÂ´t have no bullets in his rifle

No >> any - we should avoid double negation in written English. We could use either has + no or negation + any

I am just a little confused whether or not to go on exam.

Whether to be or not to be â I know how it should be, but I cannot explain it :/

Having be a dancer myself, I have excellent posture

Having be >> beeing â but how to explain it ???

I never did like these kind of exercises

These >> that â but could it be also this if I were pointing at it?

Kind is singular, so we need a singular demostrative pronoun

You telling the truth is ..

You >> your â telling is a gerund, gerunds are used like nouns. We need a possessive pronoun

The bakery depends on meal beeing delivered without delay

Meal >> mealÂ´s â beeing is a gerund, and meal refers to this gerund. We need to use a genitive form with âÂ´sâ

Re: He insisted on my/me singing a song.

Cool Breeze — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 16:31:40 GMT

Grammar Geek wrote:
Singing is a gerund, a noun, so it takes the possessive my.

This is rather peculiar, I think. I have encountered the same thing on these forums many times. Native speakers say: "A gerund is a noun." Do they teach it that way in American schools and universities? Grammatical terminology varies greatly from country to country but I have yet to meet a grammarian who says a noun can have an object:

I insisted on his speaking English.

Furthermore, all nouns can have an adjectival attribute; in other words, we can put an adjective before them:

He likes old books.
Merry old England fascinates me.
Little Mary wanted to go out.
Useful information was given to everybody.

So, if gerunds are full-fledged nouns, the following is correct:

Correct speaking English is easy.

Few consider it correct. A gerund is neither a noun nor a verb; it's a cross between them. It has some qualities characteristic of nouns and some that are characteristic of verbs. It resembles a verb in that it can take an object, for instance.

Therefore, "I insist on him speaking English" and "I insist on his speaking English" are equally grammatical. In the first sentence, him is used due to the influence of the preposition on, which is normal English grammar. In the second sentence his is used because speaking is a noun to an extent, even though it's not a complete noun. It has long been customary to consider possessive forms (my, his, our) of personal pronouns better than the object forms (me, him, us) as subjects of a gerund. It also used to be common to consider the basic or common form of other words better in this position:

I insist on John Smith speaking English. (Also: John Smith's)
I insist on everybody speaking English. (Rarely: everybody's)

In the past 30 or so years I have noticed a tendency in American magazines and newspapers to prefer the genitive even in cases where it sounds and looks ludicrous. I assume this can be ascribed to rising standards in education. Nevertheless, there has never been a grammatical justification to consider one of the alternatives better. The tendency to consider the possessive form the better seems to me to stem from grammatical ignorance rather than a good knowledge of it. There is no grammatical or historical justification for preferring either form.

Cheers
CB

Re: genitive as a noun -- long question

Cool Breeze — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:19:55 GMT

Believer wrote:
Can a gerund function as a countable noun? If so, can you show me how it is done in simple terms?

Hi Believer

Of course a gerund can form a plural: his comings and goings.
As you see, the plural is formed by adding an s to the word. Some grammarians distinguish between a gerund and a verbal noun; 'verbal' here meaning 'formed from a verb'.

Examples:
Gerund: Speaking English correctly is easy.
Verbal noun: The correct speaking of English is easy.

Note that a verbal noun is a complete substantive and therefore can take an article and an adjectival attribute. A gerund is a hybrid between a noun and a verb as it has some properties of each. If it were a complete noun, the following sentence would be correct:

Correct speaking English is easy.
There isn't a single noun in English that can't have an adjectival attribute. Speaking in the above example can't be modified by correct and consequently speaking is not a noun in this sentence.

As gerunds are not complete nouns, there are restrictions on their plural usage. You can't put an s after every gerund, usage is often idiomatic. Pay attention to such forms as you read English texts and you'll learn to use them.

Cheers
CB

Re: genitive as a noun -- long question

Believer — Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:38:25 GMT

Thank you, CalifJim, Khoff and Eimai_Anglos.

I think I made a mistake -- yes, it should be a "gerund" and not "genitive."

I did some reseach on my own and I think I have gotten the following Google search results:

"a cutting of" 29,200 hits

"a shaking of" 29,700 hits

"a mixing of" 275,500 hits

All seemed to fit somewhat very well with the notion of an instance of cutting, shaking and mixing (as taught us to) by CalifJim, I think).

As to the original phrase, I think the following results were the product of a Google search:

"a barking of" 1,540 hits -- some entries dealt with a myth or a folklore.

"barkings of" 15,000 hits -- the entries here seemed to be from somewhat solid sources where the quality of writing leaves little doubt as to their acceptability, in my opinion, and these many entries from seemingly "quality" sources cast some doubt as to the credibility of what I believe to be Eimai_Anglos' assertion that the word "barkings" is not a correct English word (I think that is what he said).

Here, I am trying my best to get a grasp of what seems to be an important thing to know. Can you help? Can a gerund function as a countable noun? If so, can you show me how it is done in simple terms?

Thank you, all.

Re: genitive as a noun -- long question

CalifJim — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:26:10 GMT

I was about to point out the same thing.

According to some grammarians, there are no genitives in English. According to others they are the same as possessives. According to others they are only possessives formed with apostrophes.

my, your, our
Mary's, the students', a friend's

A gerund or present participle is very different:

playing, resting, reading, seeing, barking

Gerunds and present participles are indistinguisable in form. If used as a noun, they are gerunds; if as an adjective, present participles.

CJ

Re: genitive as a noun -- long question

khoff — Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:50:41 GMT

Before this thread goes on too long, I wanted to point out that a noun ending in -ing, that comes from a verb, is a "gerund," not a "genitive."

Re: Examining sentences

Cool Breeze — Tue, 22 May 2007 16:55:18 GMT

1. Do / does / did is generally used instead of repeating a verb:
He likes coffee and so do I.
John saw her there and I did as well. (NOT: ... and so saw I)

2. I am not familiar with the term 'noun phrase'. Being corrected is a passive gerund and there is vacillation in its subject. If the subject is a personal pronoun, most grammarians consider a possessive form better than the object form:

I insist on him/his going there.

Going has some of the characteristics of a noun and consequently the possessive (his) seems logical. However, the preposition (on) can also be seen to exert an influence on the word following it, which in turn yields him.

When the subject is a noun, many usage experts think the basic form is the better choice, but I think for 20 to 30 years there has been a growing tendency to use the possessive form - in other words, the genitive - here as well:

I insist on Mr Bell/Mr Bell's going there.

Those who insist on the possessive form being the only correct choice will end up writing this sentence differently.
(Those who insist on the possessive form's being the only correct choice will end up writing this sentence differently.)

3. Adjectives can be made nouns by placing the before them:

The sublime has always appealed to him.
The poor have little money.

Cheers
CB