Re: inclusion vs. separation (present perfect and simple past)

Hoa Thai — Mon, 19 Nov 2007 03:07:52 GMT

Dear all,

For whatever its worth â Here is my opinion as I promised to deliver:

The issue we have been dealing with here boils down to one question â âIn one sentence, grammatically and semantically, could we use both simple past and present perfect for one item?â

Evidently, the example from BBCâs Teaching English site, âThink about a film you have seen recently, what was it called?â, affirmatively answers that question. The non-definitive âa filmâ associates well with the present perfect âhave seenâ; and it is all right to use âwasâ to pin down an instance in the past once our mind fixes on the selected item (i.e., simple past).

Since the above sentence is okay, then we can deduct that âthe verb see or whatever it isâ and the âfilmâ do not contribute to the confusion of our mind. Thus, in the sentence âWhat was the last movie you have seen?â, the culprit must be the superlative âthe lastâ!

When we use the superlative âthe â¦â , it does not matter what adjective we attach to it - be it âlastâ, âbestâ, âworstâ, âthe most..â, etcâ¦ we ask our mind to lock on to a moment in time (i.e., simple past). If we follow immediately with a present perfect tense, our minds would usually cry foul! - Why usually but not always?

Apparently, millions of hits from a simple Google search prove that some minds do accept such ungrammatical construct without any reservation. As an example, âWhat was the best movie you have ever seen?â could be seen in many forumsâ questions, blogs, and at Yahooâs Answer site.

If we accept that the word âeverâ , which could mean âat any timeâ per American Heritage dictionary, could we then see the stressing intention of the minds when they detect a possible time conflict and insert that word between âhaveâ and âbeenâ while âamong all the moviesâ becomes ellipsis (as an after thought)? This is what I think they mean to say: âWhat was the best movie among all the movies you have ever seen?â

From the naturalness point of view, people donât pause to think much about grammar, if âthe bestâ is okay then âthe lastâ seems to pose no problem - although the later clearly shows its time-biased nature. However, that naturalness - albeit seemingly ungrammatical - must have been ever permitted unless we find an opportunity to re-validate its correctness. Once we realize that it might cause confusion, we find a different way to clarify / say it and hold on to the refinement. Thus, when the rejected construct is heard / seen again, we raise the flag.

Having thought about this for the last few days, I now tell myself that:

1. The rule that raises the validity (or rather invalidity) of the marriage between simple past and present perfect in one sentence for one item must be re-examined, augmented, and complemented for specific cases. Its generalization fails to include sensible sentences.

2. Sentences that use superlative âthe â¦â in this type of construct must not be over-elliptical. (Isnât that true with every sentence?)

Thank you all,
Hoa Thai

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Re: inclusion vs. separation (present perfect and simple past)