Search results for 'tag:Modal verbs tag:Indirect speech' matching tags 'Modal verbs' and 'Indirect speech'

Re: past tense of must in reported speech

Marius Hancu — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 13:17:58 GMT

We might not have the same edition.
In my case, it's
Swan
482, reporting (3), advanced points, item 5, modal verbs in indirect speech
on page 505

Re: past tense of must in reported speech

Marius Hancu — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 12:43:14 GMT

As per Swan, must is usually unchanged in indirect speech after past reporting verbs:
-------
Direct: It must be really late. I really must go.
Indirect: She said it must be pretty late and she really must go.

Swan, reporting (3), advanced points, modal verbs in indirect speech
-------
Valid for other modals too.

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

just the truth — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:20:52 GMT

Paco:

Sounds your books are telling merely that some native speakers don't do always the tense backshift in direct-to-indirect speech conversion. But I don't take it as that those books are saying ESL students always have to follow that kind of speech made by grammatically illiterate native speakers.

JTT:
That's an old falsehood, Paco but, I must admit, it is a common one. Let's do try to keep the facts straight though. It's apparent that you don't know what's grammatical or not grammatical. Without even checking or asking, you've made the completely unwarranted assumption that this applies to "illiterate native speakers".

That isn't the mark of someone who wants to find out the truth; that isn't the mark of a serious researcher; that isn't the mark of teacher of thirty years, Paco.

Eladio's question came directly because of what he's heard from native speakers on the street. Modern grammars take great pains to point out what's grammatical and what's not and I'm afraid, Paco, as good as you are, that you don't have the skills to determine which is which.

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

paco2004 — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 06:02:25 GMT

If we use passive voice, we don't have to change it in reported speech. Am I right?

JTT: That's right.

Sounds your books are telling merely that some native speakers don't do always the tense backshift in direct-to-indirect speech conversion. But I don't take it as that those books are saying ESL students always have to follow that kind of speech made by grammatically illiterate native speakers.

JTT, I think it's OK you make your assertion on the importance of learning out-of-grammar collocations native speakers are speaking everday. But if you like to do it, please do it in the Linguistics Discussion Forum. This forum is the place for EFL/ESL students, who are mostly coming to learn English grammar of the kind acceptable for pedagogic use.

paco

Re: Reported Speech (Modal verbs and Passive voice)

just the truth — Tue, 26 Apr 2005 05:28:55 GMT

CGEL:

Conversion to indirect reported speech not a matter of grammatical rule

There is a second respect in which we must beware of being misled by the traditonal account associating backshift with indirect reported speech. Converting into indirect reprted speech, however, is not a matter of applying rules of grammar that are specific to this purpose.

{JTT: emphasis NOT mine}

When I make an indirect report of [Jill's] speech, I purport to give the content of what she said - as opposed to quoting the actual wording,

This is how backshift is to be interpreted, not as converting one tense into another.

6.2.2 Obligatory vs optional backshifting

A backshifted preterite may be pragmatically equivalent to a present tense

Very often, the use of a backshifted preterite is optional.

Factors affecting choice between backshifted and non-backshifted versions

(a)

(b)

(c)

{JTT: the following specifically addresses Paco's concern about the passive though I must admit I'm lost as to why he thinks the passive should be treated in a different manner than other voices.}

(e) Simplification

In [some] case, the non-backshifted version may be prefered precisely for its greater simplicity.

Consider:

[32]

i She asked me where I was / had been born.

In cannot be interpreted as a backshifted preterite: it can be assumed that she did not ask, "Where are you born?"

=================================

The Grammar Book: An ESL/EFL Teacher's Course

The direct-to-indirect speech tense shift is the main piece of evidence cited to support the assignment of tense to modals. However, we demonstrate in Chapter 33, which deals with indirect speech, that the so-called rules of tesne shifting are NOT always followed by native speakers. This is especially true for modals; thus such evidence is somewaht weak.

==============

JTT: Paco, you should have listened to Eladio when he said,

"It was my feeling because I hear people talking in streets and I pay a lot of attention to them (to learn), and I hear many times they were talking about passive without changing it. Now I understand one more time, people talk as they wish and not always following correct grammar rules."

People who use language are the ones who determine its usage. Eladio only made one small slip up and that is understandable for everyone has long been subjected to the old lie that prescriptive grammar is somehow correct grammar. This is false false false.

People determine the rules of language. These old pedants who abandoned thinking in favor of rote memorization of prescriptions have, for too long, misled people on language. For ENLs it didn't and doesn't matter one iota, ENLs have never listened to these old canards.

For ESLs it matters a great deal. So when you, unwittingly I'm sure, pass on another language falsehood, it doesn't help Eladio and it doesn't help others who read the same thing.

Re: Modals

konstantin — Fri, 26 Mar 2004 13:50:19 GMT

Although I'm unable to answer the question, I think it can define it more precisely.
Is about with the help of which modal verbs you can tell what another person said.
They have it in German and that is, I think, what the question means - whether there is such a construction in English.
For example:
Direct speech: "I am tired", said the teacher.
Indirect speech would be: The teacher said he WOULD be tired.
I am not sure whether WOULD is correct at this place but I hope the question is more understandable now. The answer would be interesting to me.
Thanks all for answers!