Search results for 'tag:Modal verbs tag:Numbers' matching tags 'Modal verbs' and 'Numbers'

Re: What is an infinitive complement?

Anonymous — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:58:35 GMT

i really don't know exactly the "how" and the "why" the following examples are called infinitive complement so, study it by observing my examples:

here are some examples of infinitive complements:

It's important to memorize your pin number.
It's sometimes helpful to eat chicken soup.

(Anyways, the words in bold letters are the infinitive complements, one of the uses of these is when you are giving a suggestion, you use them to substitute the modal verb should).

other examples of infinitive complements:

It's useful + the infinitive verb
it's best "
it's helpful "

i hope i was helpful : )

Re: Teaching Workplace English - PPP (present-practice-production) & TBL (Task-Based Learning)

samwalker — Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:17:29 GMT

Time Allotment Week 1

Â	A	B	C	D	F	G
1	Day 1			In Minutes	Â	Â
2	House Rules			15	Â	Â
3	Language is a Lifestyle			15	Â	Â
4	Background of the Approach			30	Â	Â
5	Grading Scheme			5	Â	Â
6	HR Orientation	Â	Â	90	Â	Â
7	Ventus Video			15	Â	Â
8	Introductions			45	Â	IMPORTANT NOTES:
9	Making Phone Calls			Â	Â	RECAP/REVIEW ROLE PLAYS are not graded. This is the best venue for either peer or trainer feedback
10	Â	Present		Â	Â	For group activities, ensure that all members are contributing or participating to maximize the learning.
11	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Have you ever made a phone call before? How did you start the call? How did it end? Would you say the communication was successful? What was the purpose of the call? Did you get what you expected out of it? Share your experiences with a partner.	10	Â	Always pay close attention to pronunciation with every activity.
12	Â	Â	Systematization (present module on Sound Production)	45	Â	Â
13	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
14	Â	Â	Making Contact (Activity A)	25	Â	Â
15	Â	Â	Making Contact (Activity B)	25	Â	Â
16	Â	Â	Calling Back	25	Â	Â
17	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
18	Â	Â	Roleplay (scenarios)	60	Â	Â
19	Telephone English Roleplays			Â	Â	Â
20	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
21	Â	Â	Running Dictation	15	Â	Â
22	Â	Â	Systematization (Modality:Â going to and will)	30	Â	Â
23	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
24	Â	Â	ABC Tech Scenario 1	20	Â	Â
25	Â	Â	ABC Tech Scenario 2	20	Â	Â
26	Â	Â	ABC Tech Scenario 3	20	Â	Â
27	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
28	Â	Â	Roleplay (trainees pair up and come up with their own scenarios)	30	Â	Â
29	Lunch			60	Â	Â
30	Breaks			30	Â	Â
31	Total Time			630	Â	Â
32	Day 2			In Minutes	Â	Â
33	RECAP/REVIEW ACTIVITY (Roleplay) - Making Phone Calls/ Sound Production			60	Â	Â
34	Complaints on the Telephone			Â	Â	Â
35	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
36	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Activity: Do you consider yourself a consumer? Share experiences with a group and then share with the rest of the class. Write down words associated with dissatisfaction.	15	Â	Â
37	Â	Â	Systematization (Different Types of Difficult Customers and How to Deal with Them)	45	Â	Â
38	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
39	Â	Â	Create your own Taboo	30	Â	Â
40	Â	Â	Complaints on the Telephone Activity C:Â Focus	30	Â	Â
41	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
42	Â	Â	Roleplay	60	Â	Â
43	Complaints on the Telephone			Â	Â	Â
44	Â	Pre-Task (list all the complaints you've made in a resto and categorize according to intention/function)		10	Â	Â
45	Â	Task		Â	Â	Â
46	Â	Â	Plan	10	Â	Â
47	Â	Â	Report	15	Â	Â
48	Â	Â	Analysis (Functions of Modal Verbs: Complaining, Softening the Message )	60	Â	Â
49	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
50	Â	Â	RoleplayÂ (Activity D)	60	Â	Â
51	Â	Quiz (Function of Modal Verbs and Aspects of Modality) PPT presentation for the questions		55	Â	Â
52	Lunch			60	Â	Â
53	Breaks			30	Â	Â
54	Total Time			540	Â	Â
55	Day 3			In Minutes	Â	Â
56	RECAP/REVIEW ACTIVITY			Â	Â	Â
57	Â	Modality (Task 2, page 3) Check-Up Activity		20	Â	Â
58	Â	Roleplay (Difficult Customers)		40	Â	Â
59	CALL 1 (Anna Pagtakhan) - Modality			Â	Â	Â
60	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
61	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Activity: Play by Play (ask the trainees to listen to the call. They will need to pick out confusing statements or utterances they feel are out of place, uncalled for, etc.	15	Â	Â
62	Â	Â	Systematization (Modality: Requesting for Information, Asking for Permission)	30	Â	Â
63	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
64	Â	Â	Identifying and Correcting Modals Used in the Call	30	Â	Â
65	Â	Â	Role Play with Corrections	45	Â	Â
66	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
67	Â	Â	Role Plays ( How Would You Do It Better? - Only change CSRs responses - roles will be played by trainees, switch it up after)	45	Â	Â
68	CALL 1 (Anna Pagtakhan) - Soft Skills			Â	Â	Â
69	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
70	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Activity: Play by Play (ask the trainees to listen to the call. Go through their original list and if they feel that they need to add more statements that are possible causes for communication breakdown, then let them do so.)	30	Â	Â
71	Â	Â	Systematization (Soft Skills: Overtones, Tone and Undertones )	30	Â	Â
72	Â	Â	Systematization (Phonology: Connected Speech and Elision )	15	Â	Â
73	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
74	Â	Â	Identifying undertones in the call and correcting tone	30	Â	Â
75	Â	Â	Role Play with Corrections	60	Â	Â
76	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
77	Â	Â	Role Plays ( How Would You Do It Better? - Only change CSRs responses - roles will be played by trainees, switch it up after)	60	Â	Â
78	Lunch	Â	Â	60	Â	Â
79	Breaks	Â	Â	30	Â	Â
80	Total Time	Â	Â	540	Â	Â
81	Day 4			In Minutes	Â	Â
82	RECAP/REVIEW ACTIVITY	Â	Â	Â	Â	Â
83	Â	Roleplay (Not Graded, Just give feedback) - Modality and Soft Skills	Â	40	Â	Â
84	CALL 2 (Christopher Gavero)			Â	Â	Â
85	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
86	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Activity: Play by Play (ask the trainees to listen to the call. They will need to pick out confusing statements or utterances they feel are out of place, uncalled for, etc.	30	Â	Â
87	Â	Â	Systematization (Modality: Giving advice/suggestions; Offering )	40	Â	Â
88	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
89	Â	Â	Identifying and Correcting Modals Used in the Call	30	Â	Â
90	Â	Â	Role Play with Corrections	45	Â	Â
91	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
92	Â	Â	Role Plays ( How Would You Do It Better? - Same scenario)	60	Â	Â
93	CALL 1 and CALL 3 (Anna Pagtakhan and Lorelie Sanchez)	Â	Â	Â	Â	Â
94	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
95	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Activity: Tag Team - An Exercise on Synonyms: Vocabulary Building - Word Mapping and Association	10	Â	Â
96	Â	Â	Systematization (Paraphrasing)	45	Â	Â
97	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
98	Â	Â	Identifying and Correcting Repetitive, Redundant and confusing statements. - Compare and Contrast	30	Â	Â
99	Â	Â	Role Play with Corrections	30	Â	Â
100	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
101	Â	Â	Role Plays (Change the CSRs responses for CALL 3)	60	Â	Â
102	Â	Â	QUIZ on Modality (Written)	30	Â	Â
103	Lunch			60	Â	Â
104	Breaks			30	Â	Â
105	Total Time			540	Â	Â
106	Day 5			In Minutes	Â	Â
107	RECAP/REVIEW ACTIVITY	Â	Â	Â	Â	Â
108	Â	Roleplay (Modality and Paraphrasing)	Â	40	Â	Â
109	REVIEW for Written Exam	Â	Â	40	Â	Â
110	Â	WRITTEN EXAM: Application and Analysis		90	Â	Â
111	REVIEW for Final Role Play			40	Â	Â
112	Â	ORAL EXAM: One on One Role Play with Trainer	Â	240	Â	Â
113	Lunch	Â	Â	60	Â	Â
114	Breaks	Â	Â	30	Â	Â
115	Total Time	Â	Â	540	Â	Â

Time Allotment Week 2

Â	A	B	C	D	E	F
1	Day 6			In Minutes	Â	Â
2	RECAP/REVIEW ACTIVITY (Roleplay) -Sound Production/Modality/ Handling Difficult Customers/ Paraphrasing			60	Â	Â
3	Â	Present (CALL 4: Matthew Ignacio)		Â	Â	For group activities, ensure that all members are contributing or participating to maximize the learning.
4	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Activity:Â I CAN HANDLE THE TRUTH. Divide the class into groups of five. Ask each group to come up with as many statements of fact that they can recall about the conversation they've listened to (i.e. The CSRs name is Matthew, etc.)	30	Â	Always pay close attention to pronunciation with every activity.
5	Â	Â	Systematization (Present the module on theÂ Present Simple TenseÂ )	45	Â	Â
6	Â	Practice (CALL 4: Matthew Ignacio)		Â	Â	Â
7	Â	Â	Filtering: Let the class listen to the call again, this time, give them the transcript as well. In groups, ask them to determine which statements are clearer if kept in the simple present tense.	60	Â	Â
8	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
9	Â	Â	RoleplayÂ (scenarios) - Ask the class to input their corrections into the call and then ask each pair to go through the motions of the call. Give immediate feedback.	80	Â	Â
10	CALL 5: Maria Josue			Â	Â	Â
11	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
12	Â	Â	Running Dictation:Â (1)Make the trainees listen to the call in its entirety. (2)Ask them to take down important notes and details. (3) Divide them into groups. (4) Give them 3 strips of paper per group. (5) Ask them to write statements that are relevant to the call, one statement per strip. (6) Ask them to pick out one representative. (7) The facilitator will collect all the strips and give statements from one group to another group's representative. (8) The representative will only be able to look at the statements for 30 seconds. (9) Then he/she will have to pass all three messages to the person next to him in line until it's been relayed to rest of the group. (10) The last person in the group will have to repeat all three statements.	30	Â	Â
13	Â	Â	Systematization (Present module on theÂ Present Progressive Tense)	35	Â	Â
14	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
15	Â	Â	Pick Your Brains:Â The class will have to pick out the statements following the form of the progressive simple tense.	45	Â	Â
16	Â	Â	Editing and Processing:Â Determine which statements should have been more comprehensible if the statements were in the progressive tense.	45	Â	Â
17	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
18	Â	Â	RoleplayÂ (trainees pair up and come up with their own conversation using the same concern as that in Call 5)	80	Â	Â
19	Lunch			60	Â	Â
20	Breaks			30	Â	Â
21	Total Time			540	Â	Â
22	Day 7			In Minutes	Â	Â
23	RECAP/REVIEW ACTIVITY (Roleplay) - Use of the Present Simple and Present Progressive Tenses			60	Â	Â
24	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
25	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Complete the Sentence Activity (If I wereâ¦If you ask meâ¦)	20	Â	Â
26	Â	Â	Systematization (Present module on theÂ 1st Conditional: Present Simple and Future Simple Format)	30	Â	Â
27	CALL 6: Marilou Salcedo (Let the class listen to the call at least twice)			10	Â	Â
28	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
29	Â	Â	Determine if there are conditionals used and misused in the call	20	Â	Â
30	Â	Â	Applying the Format:Â Change statements into the first conditional.	40	Â	Â
31	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
32	Â	Â	Roleplay:Â Ask the trainees to come up with their own conversation based on the scenario in the call. They should be able to use the first conditional where it is needed.	60	Â	Â
33	CALL 7: Margaret Gonsoden			15	Â	Â
34	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
35	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Ask the trainees to pick out 1st conditionals in the call.	15	Â	Â
36	Â	Â	Systematization (Present module on theÂ 2nd and 3rd conditionals)	30	Â	Â
37	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
38	Â	Â	Applying the Format: Change the 1st conditionals into either 2nd or 3rd conditionals	30	Â	Â
39	Â	Â	Revision Mission:Â Ask the trainees to improve the conversation by injecting conditionals into strategic places in the call.	30	Â	Â
40	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
41	Â	Â	Role PlaysÂ ( How Would You Do It Better? - Only change CSRs responses - roles will be played by trainees, switch it up after)	60	Â	Â
42	Â			Â	Â	Â
43	Â	Quiz (Present Tenses:Â CTWE The Tenses Handout, page 1 items 1-8)		30	Â	Â
44	Lunch			60	Â	Â
45	Breaks			30	Â	Â
46	Total Time			540	Â	Â
47	Day 8			In Minutes	Â	Â
48	RECAP/REVIEW ACTIVITY: Using Conditionals in a Role Play			60	Â	Â
49	CALL 8: Rosa Batangan			Â	Â	Â
50	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
51	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Modals and Conditionals: Are there any uses of modals or conditionals? How do these help keep the communication lines clear?	Â	Â	Â
52	Â	Â	Systematization (Making Modals and Conditionals Work for Us)	Â	Â	Â
53	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
54	Â	Â	Identifying and Correcting Repetitive, Redundant and confusing statements. -Â Compare and Contrast	Â	Â	Â
55	Â	Â	Role Play with Corrections	Â	Â	Â
56	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
57	Â	Â	Role Plays ( How Would You Do It Better? - Only change CSRs responses - roles will be played by trainees, switch it up after)	Â	Â	Â
58	CALL 9: Winston Mendiola			Â	Â	Â
59	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
60	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions) Modals and Conditionals: Are there any uses of modals or conditionals? How do these help keep the communication lines clear?	Â	Â	Â
61	Â	Â	Systematization (Making Modals and Conditionals Work for Us)	Â	Â	Â
62	Â	Practice		Â	Â	Â
63	Â	Â	Identifying and Correcting Repetitive, Redundant and confusing statements. -Â Compare and Contrast	Â	Â	Â
64	Â	Â	Role Play with Corrections	Â	Â	Â
65	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
66	Â	Â	Role Plays ( How Would You Do It Better? - Only change CSRs responses - roles will be played by trainees, switch it up after)	Â	Â	Â
67	Lunch			Â	Â	Â
68	Breaks			Â	Â	Â
69	Total Time			0	Â	Â
70	Day 9			In Minutes	Â	Â
71	RECAP/REVIEW ACTIVITY			Â	Â	Â
72	Â	Roleplay (Not Graded, Just give feedback) -Conditionals		Â	Â	Â
73	American Culture			Â	Â	Â
74	Â	Present		Â	Â	Â
75	Â	Â	Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions)Â Â Elicitation Questions: Do you watch American sitcoms and movies? What have you observed about their lifestyle? What makes them tick? What values are important to them?	Â	Â	Â
76	Â	Â	SystematizationÂ (Show clips from sitcoms and/or movies that focus on: value of time; idea of customer service; being frank and direct to the point)	Â	Â	Â
77	Â	Practice (Plethora of Calls)		Â	Â	Â
78	Â	Â	Culture ClassÂ - Divide the class into groups: give each group a call that's been discussed in the course of the training program (Calls 1 -9). Ask them to pick out scenarios or dialogue that reflects a value that is concretely American.	Â	Â	Â
79	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
80	Â	Â	Role Play:Â Ask the trainees to come up with their own conversation scenarios based on the aspect of culture they picked out from the calls given to them.	Â	Â	Â
81	Present: Lead In (creating interest, eliciting answers, concept questions)Â Background on DISH Network Services			Â	Â	Â
82	Â	Presentation of Modules in Connection to the services offered: Customer Service		Â	Â	Â
83	Â	Â	Geography and Time Zones	Â	Â	Â
84	Â	Â	Sports	Â	Â	Â
85	Â	Â	Money	Â	Â	Â
86	Â	Â	Seasons and Holidays	Â	Â	Â
87	Â	Practice (Plethora of Calls)		Â	Â	Â
88	Â	Â	It's All in the Details- Divide the class into groups: give each group a call that's been discussed in the course of the training program (Calls 1 -9). Ask them to pick out scenarios or dialogue that reflects any of the modules tackled in the Present stage.	Â	Â	Â
89	Â	Production		Â	Â	Â
90	Â	Â	Role Play:Â Ask the trainees to come up with their own conversation scenarios based on the aspect of culture they picked out from the calls given to them.	Â	Â	Â
91	Lunch			Â	Â	Â
92	Breaks			Â	Â	Â
93	Total Time			0	Â	Â
94	Day 10			In Minutes	Â	Â
95	RECAP/REVIEW ACTIVITY			Â	Â	Â
96	Â	Roleplay (Tenses, Conditionals, Active and Passive Verbs )		40	Â	Â
97	REVIEW for Written Exam	Â	Â	40	Â	Â
98	Â	WRITTEN EXAM: Application and Analysis	Â	90	Â	Â
99	REVIEW for Final Role Play	Â	Â	40	Â	Â
100	Â	ORAL EXAM: One on One Role Play with Trainer	Â	240	Â	Â
101	Lunch			60	Â	Â
102	Breaks			30	Â	Â
103	Total Time	Â	Â	540	Â	Â

I transcribed the call and below is my lesson plan which I patterned from their format above.

AGENTÂ : Thank fuh calling Circuit City, muh name is Zach. Meh please have phone number beginning with the area code?

CUSTOMERÂ : Hi Zach, this is Sheik Sylvan and I just need to ask a few questions.

AGENTÂ Â : Go ahead.

CUSTOMERÂ : Okay, I am having your catalog in front of me and the last page is computer. Itâs HP Turion laptop with a Core 2 Duo Centrino. It comes with a window vista and it plays one the fent charges with the Window XP. Can you do that or it has to be Window vista?

AGENTÂ : Aahmm well if waahh that is only aahh the inclusion of aahh the order we cannot do anything about it.

CUSTOMERÂ : Oh, you cannot do anything. Shall I call some of the number if there are anything?

AGENTÂ Â : Aahh you chood try contacting the manufacturer of the laptop.

CUSTOMERÂ : Do you have the number?

AGENTÂ Â : Aahh what is the ahh ahh item?

CUSTOMERÂ : Okay, the web ID is DV6833us.

AGENTÂ Â : What is the brand of the laptop?

CUSTOMERÂ : Okay, thatâs aahh HP Turion laptop.

AGENTÂ Â : Itâs HP pavilion.

CUSTOMERÂ : Yes, the pavilion laptop with the Intel Centrino Core 2 Duo.

AGENTÂ Â : Okay, contact Hewlett Packard 800â¦

CUSTOMERÂ : Okay 800â¦

AGENTÂ Â : 752â¦

CUSTOMERÂ : 752â¦

AGENTÂ Â : 0900â¦

CUSTOMERÂ : Say it again, 29?

AGENTÂ Â : 7920900â¦

CUSTOMERÂ : Iâm sorry, can you repeat it again?

AGENTÂ Â : 09-00, the last four number.

CUSTOMERÂ : 0900. Okay, so itâs 8007520900, all right?

AGENTÂ Â : That is correct.

CUSTOMERÂ : Thank you, Sir.

AGENTÂ Â : Thank you for calling Cir City. Have a great day.Â

Let me know if you want me to email you the selected call in .wmv format.

Title: Name That ToneÂ Â Â Â By: Francis Paolo Meria

Activity: Reading sentences using different emotionsÂ Audio file: John Paul Cruz (bad call CCCS)Â

Concept to be taught: Tone, Overtones and UndertonesÂ

Learning Outcomes / Instructional Goal

To realize the importance of tone
To be able to identify and correct undertones
To build rapport by using the using the right tone of voice

Purpose: This activity helps the trainees to become more confident in their ability to recognize tones different forms. It also helps motivate everyone in the room to participate in the learning.Â Â

Assessment - At the end of the lesson, assess whether the objective was achieved or not with an activity. Show sentences and statements and ask the agents individually to say the sentence using the correct tone of voice or the trainer could say a sentence with different emotions and ask each trainee to identify the mood of the speaker. In this way, the concept will be clear.Â

Present

Lead In Â : creating interests, eliciting answers, concept questions (How does tone of voice affect communication? How do you thank someone? How do you say âIâm sorryâ?) â 5 minutesÂ

Methodology/ProcedureÂ : ask the trainees to listen to the call and pick out confusing statements, utterances they feel are out of place, uncalled for, etc. Go through their original list and if they feel that they need to add more statements that are possible causes for communication breakdown, then let them do so. âÂ 10 minutesÂ

Systematization â Soft skills (overtones, tone and undertones) â 10 minutesÂ

Practice

Identify the undertones in the call â 5 minutesÂ

Filtering â let the class listen to the call again, this time, give them the transcript as well â 15 minutesÂ

Revision Mission â ask the trainees to improve the conversation by applying the appropriate tone of voice in each statement â 30 minutesÂ

Production

Role-plays â how would you do it better? (roles will be played by trainees, switch it up after) â 45 minutesÂ

Re: please i need to help from you

CalifJim — Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:22:42 GMT

Linguists often consider endings when determining the number of tenses in a language.

The English verb can only take two forms from the viewpoint of tense endings: present: talks and past: talked.

The future is formed by adding an extra verb (the modal verb will) in front of the verb -- not by changing an ending.

For this reason some textbooks use different terminology for English verb tenses depending whether the verb form is made with endings or with other verbs.

On this forum you will find all sorts of terminology. Some of it conforms to the practice I just described, but much of it does not.

CJ

Would

Rotter — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 19:26:03 GMT

In the early Church, Christians would celebrate the anniversary of a martyr's death for Christ (known as the saint's "birth day") by serving an All-Night Vigil, and then celebrating the Eucharist over their tomb or place of martyrdom. In the fourth century, neighbouring dioceses began to transfer relics, and to celebrate the feast days of specific martyrs in common. Frequently, a number of Christians would suffer martyrdom on the same day, which naturally led to a joint commemoration. In the persecution of Diocletian the number of martyrs became so great that a separate day could not be assigned to each. But the Church, feeling that every martyr should be venerated, appointed a common day for all.

I have learnt to write the modal verb 'would' in the case of a hypothesis. Marius and a few others taught me this recently.
I don't know the reason to write the modal verb 'would' in the first sentence of the above.
I would write the following:
In the early Church, Christians celebrated the anniversary of a maty'r death for Christ ...
What is wrong with my way of writing in this context ? It was a past event so to write simple past tense is appropriate.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now look at the following:
Frequently, a number of Christians would suffer martyrdom on the same day, which naturally ...

What is the necessity of writing 'Christians would suffer' here?

I would write the following:

Frequently, a number of Christians suffered martyrdom on the same day, which naturally ...
Is the above incorrect in the given context?

[People of this country celebrate or rather pay a great attention to All Saint's Day.]

Re: Using Would instead of Will in Future Perfect

Chad — Sat, 09 Dec 2006 10:18:23 GMT

Sabyakgp wrote:

Dear Friends,

I would like to how "Would" can be used in future perfect as a modal verb.

For Example.

Analysts predicts that world population would have risen considerably by 2010. (Prediction can be wrong, so using "Would" instead of "Will" means this sentence is less directive than the below one which is using "Will" )

Analysts confirms that world population will have risen considerably by 2010. (here analysts are confirming the likelihood of world population being increased by 2010).

But both of them are pointing to future. Are these sentences correct ? Can we use "Would" in future perfect in this way to mean something less likely to happen in future.

Or consider this:

Day "begins" at about 09:00 after 4 hours of sleep. So after doing the customary check on emails and stuff like that, I pack up all the rest of the stuff I have (computer being last, obviously) and then leave home.

So on the way to the airport, I finally manage to get Kara's number (to wish her a happy early birthday since I would have left by that time) through Linda -> Connie -> Bonnie. (I guess, speaker was not very sure that he would have left by that time, so he used would have left instead of will have left). Is my understanding correct ?

Another Example:

My company will have allocated 50 shares for me by Jan 2007, but it's of no use for me as i would have left the cmopany by that time. (Here again speaker is not sure whether he/she would be out of the company before Jan 2007, other Will could have been used instead of Would have).

Please let me know whether my understanding is correct ?

Regards

Sabya

I think "I will have gone" expresses action in the future before another action in the future. this is the past in the future. And "I would have gone" usually use in conditional statement like for example "If I won the lottery I would buy a car" lke we are thinking about a future condition.

Using Would instead of Will in Future Perfect

Sabyakgp — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:28:43 GMT

Dear Friends,

I would like to how "Would" can be used in future perfect as a modal verb.

For Example.

Analysts predicts that world population would have risen considerably by 2010. (Prediction can be wrong, so using "Would" instead of "Will" means this sentence is less directive than the below one which is using "Will" )

Analysts confirms that world population will have risen considerably by 2010. (here analysts are confirming the likelihood of world population being increased by 2010).

But both of them are pointing to future. Are these sentences correct ? Can we use "Would" in future perfect in this way to mean something less likely to happen in future.

Or consider this:

Day "begins" at about 09:00 after 4 hours of sleep. So after doing the customary check on emails and stuff like that, I pack up all the rest of the stuff I have (computer being last, obviously) and then leave home.

So on the way to the airport, I finally manage to get Kara's number (to wish her a happy early birthday since I would have left by that time) through Linda -> Connie -> Bonnie. (I guess, speaker was not very sure that he would have left by that time, so he used would have left instead of will have left). Is my understanding correct ?

Another Example:

My company will have allocated 50 shares for me by Jan 2007, but it's of no use for me as i would have left the cmopany by that time. (Here again speaker is not sure whether he/she would be out of the company before Jan 2007, other Will could have been used instead of Would have).

Please let me know whether my understanding is correct ?

Regards

Sabya

Re: The Seven Deadly Sins of Grammar

Drewauerbach — Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:08:48 GMT

Alienvoord, I appreciate you're constructive criticism. Allow me to rebute:

1) Comprehensible, yes. But many expressions are comprehensible even without being gramatically sound. The nuances I try to reveal in this post are to help you write better gramatically, not to sound or to write comprehensible.

2) I cannot refute this well supported argument. In fact, there is a sliver of the article that directly weakens my point. I quote:
-------BEGIN EXCERPT FROM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive -----------

Problems caused by trying to avoid the split infinitive

Stylistically, the careful placement of another word between to and the bare infinitive sometimes avoids ambiguity or ugliness. The old prohibition on split infinitives is particularly surprising when one observes that there are a number of expressions in English that are weakened considerably by avoiding the split infinitive.

[edit]

An example

R.L. Trask uses this example:

She decided to gradually get rid of the teddy bears she had collected.

Clearly, what is implied here is she took a decision to get rid of her teddy bears, and the disposal would happen over time. 'Gradually' splits the infinitive 'to get'. But if we were to move it, where would it go?. Consider the following:

She decided gradually to get rid of the teddy bears she had collected.

This implies that the decision was gradual.

She decided to get rid of the teddy bears she had collected gradually.

This implies that the collecting process was gradual.

She decided to get gradually rid of the teddy bears she had collected.

This sounds awkward to most native speakers of English.

She decided to get rid gradually of the teddy bears she had collected.

This is almost as awkward as its immediate predecessor.

Not only does the original example sound right to a native speaker, it is also the only semantically sound possibility.

The best way to avoid using split infinitives is usually via a change in lexical choices. However, in spoken language, phonetic stresses and timing is usually all that is needed for a sentence's actual implications to be understood.

In other instances, use of a split infinitive is for many people the most natural way to add certain kinds of emphasis in conversation:

Student A: "I'm going to do better next year."Student B: "I'm going to really do better next year."

On a historical level, it is possible that years of attacks against split infinitives by prescriptive grammarians have cowed some people into needless reluctance to split other compound verb forms. For example, people will contort sentences to avoid placing an adverb in its usual position between the auxiliary verb and the participle, leading to constructions such as, "The argument originally had been usedâ¦" instead of "The argument had originally been used", which is more natural for most speakers.

It is probably not possible to disentangle this argument from the modality of English grammar. Typically, in a phrase such as "I am going to", the verbal construct "to be going to" acts as a modal verb, analogous to other standard modal verbs "will", "could", "can" etc. In this sense, it becomes apparent that the preposition 'to' does not belong to the infinitive verb, but rather to the modal verb. In this case, it becomes impossible to split an infinitive.

-------END EXCERPT FROM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive --------

3) By saying, "I only <want to go to the movies>," you do NOT imply that you also <do not want to breathe.> Again, you got to pay attention to what "only" is modifying, the verb. By placing the limiting modifier before the first verb in this sentence, you imply limitations to what you can do, including breathing (although the idea sounds exagerrated initially, it really is correct). Now, you say that the sentence implies that the speaker <does not want to breathe>. Not so! In fact, the speaker implies that (s)he CANNOT breathe, regardless of desire. In fact, the speaker implies that (s)he is capable of only desiring to go to the movies. In my last sentence, I would have been correct to say, "In fact, the speaker implies that (s)he is only capable of desiring to go to the movies," or, "In fact, the speaker implies that (s)he only is capable of desiring to go to the movies."

4) The point I'm trying to make here is that using "it" as a dummy subject is gramatically incorrect; therefore, we should reject its use as a dummy subject (think prescriptivist rather than descriptivist).

5) I do not understand your argument here; therefore, I cannot refute it.

6) Your "counterargument" seems to be more like a historical basis that I would use to set up my argument. Which side are you on: yours or mine?

7) You're correct; I have not. Here is my evidence: Passive voice is boring. End of discussion.

Re: Linguistics

CalifJim — Thu, 20 Jul 2006 08:25:31 GMT

I have the same problem, to the point that I believe the entire internal/external conceptualization and terminology are not only hopelessly inadequate, but actually perversely antagonistic to understanding.

I look at must as epistemic (logical necessity), have to as deontic (interpersonal obligation). Period.
Other variants are to me merely "borrowings". We can borrow "must" into the deontic world and "have to" into the epistemic world. (Employees must wash their hands after using the toilet. / It had to [be / have been] John who left the keys on the table.) But these can be conceptualized as special uses. They don't need to be seen as the primary uses.

If an obligation is imposed from outside, I assume it's external. If it's imposed by the subject upon himself, I assume it's internal. However, I don't see any way that this distinction correlates with any particular choice of modal verb. Both have to and must can be used for external obligations, as I conceive of them here, and both have to and must can be used for internal obligations as well. One may as well discuss the number of letters needed to spell each modal verb as a means of understanding how they work!

If internal and external represent a separate and independent classification, it should be possible to find epistemic internal, epistemic external, deontic internal, and deontic external variants. I have no idea what these would be! Perhaps if I [have to / must] do something, it's internal and if you, he, or she [{have/has} to / must] do something, it's external!

In short, those are my rambling remarks on the subject.

CJ

Re: I need your comment on "future tense"

MrPedantic — Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:28:47 GMT

PASTEL wrote:

MrP! How are you? I'm glad to see you again.

Wow, how long did it take you to squeeze those examples? If I read it more than twice, I'm going to faint to the ground. I assure you, I will.

I have a new question. Ready?!

Tim ____ early before he reaches 65. He mentioned it at the meeting recently.

1- is going to
2- will

When it speaks of reporting, it's better to use "be going to."

I think "will" is just fine. I don't see anything wrong with it. What do you think?

Pastel

Hello Pastel

It's an odd sentence. I'd change it to:

1. Tim is going to retire early (at 65). He mentioned it in a recent meeting.

2. Tim will retire early (at 65). He mentioned it in a recent meeting.

#1 would be used if you were reporting the news to someone.

#2 might be used if...

"Okay, I've made some changes to the company structure. I have them here, on the back of this envelope. Gather round, everyone. Pastel! Stop playing that computer game and come here! This is important!

Okay...Now, Roro is going to work on prepositions from now on. MrP is going to remain in charge of the washroom. (We need some more soap in there, by the way, MrP. And fix the lock on cubicle number 2, will you. I got stuck in there for an hour the other day.) As for Paco â Paco will have responsibility for all modal verbs. Now is everything clear? Any questions?"

"What about Tim?"

"Tim will retire early. But don't say anything to him. He doesn't know yet. I'll talk to him later. But that's a point â where is Tim?"

"Cubicle number two."

MrP

Re: Past Perfect

just the truth — Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:26:51 GMT

Paco:
By the way I have a feeling that English 'now' (in the linguistic sense, not in the physical sense) is not instantaneous, but it seems to occupy some span in the time that flows from the past to the future. Otherwise I cannot understand the usage of the present progressive tense.

JTT: I didn't make any reference to 'now' and the present progressive, Paco. Different 'tense', different usage. The present progressive encompasses a different part of the time spectrum than does a future marker. In order to discuss anything that is going to happen ahead of 'now', no matter how small that time frame is, requires a future marker.

Bringing this discussion back to the issue at hand, Pastel and I would guess, a large number of ESLs are operating under the mistaken notion that, "I would save $20" has a past time meaning and that it can collocate with "if I hadn't bought. We now can see it doesn't and that it can't. We should also be able to see that word choice also has a dramatic effect on what "tense" is chosen.

I believe this aspect is a crucial to helping Jack and other ESLs really grasp these differences. For as long as I've been here, Jack has been confused by these "tense" differences.

Why can't 'save' be used without a modal perfect, but these two are okay,

a) I would have 20 bucks more NOW if I hadn't bought it.

b) I would be ahead 20 bucks NOW if I hadn't bought it.

Because a) and b) have meanings that point to a present state, a present condition while 'save' has a meaning that can only point to that finished time when something was bought.

Let me repeat what the Longman Grammar of Written and Spoken English states as regards the modal verbs in modern English. This is crucial to Jack and Pastel and many other ESLs grasping the meanings of these sentences. They have been misled for much too long.

++++++++++++
"As already noted (6.2.1), English verbs phrases can be marked for either tense or modality, but not both."

" ... we regard modal verbs as unmarked for tense."

Longman Grammar of Written and Spoken English [LGWSE]
++++++++++++++

Here is what is on the back cover of the LGWSE.

"Some aspects of traditional grammar are challenged by this book, and some findings, not even suspected before now, will surprise and interest the reader.

The way language is used in conversation is quite different from the way language is used in fiction, which in turn is very different from the grammatical characteristics of newspapers or academic books."

David Crystal - "For the foreseeable future anyone with a serious interest in English grammar will have to take into account the information this book contains."