Search results for 'tag:Negatives tag:Commas' matching tags 'Negatives' and 'Commas'

Re: or /nor

Tanit — Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:58:19 GMT

Hi

May I quote an excerpt from M. Swan, 2005, Practical English Usage, 3rd edition. OUP. (para. 370.5 "Two negative ideas: not ... or / not ... nor") I posted some months ago in another thread?

Swan

When not refers to two or more verbs, nouns, adjectives etc, we usually join them with or.
...
However, we can use not after a pause, to separate and emphasise a second verb, adjective etc.
Our main need is not food, nor money. It is education. (More emphatic than ... food or money.)
She didn't phone that day, nor the next day. (More emphatic than ... or the next day.)
Note that neither cannot be used in this way.

In the other thread, I think I learnt that:
1. neither ... nor ... / not ... or ... are more common in everyday speech -- more "natural"
2. not ... nor ... (possibly with a comma before "nor") emphasises the second part, so it can be used as a stylistic (formal? rhetoric?) device.
I assume this could explain the number of hits returned by G.Books. Would you agree?

Re: Please check for me this discursive essay !

Grammar Geek — Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:01:14 GMT

Hello redneon,
Highlights show potential problems. Remember to leave a space after a period or comma. English-speaking country, with a hyphen. You need some articles here and there.

Topic: Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of studying English in an English-speaking country

Bilions of people around the world study English as their foreign language. Many of them attribute a fluent English learner to living in an English speaking country, whereas others believe that there are many obstacles when studying overseas. Therefore,this essay will discuss about the benefits and negatives of studying English in an English-speaking country.

The first argument in favor of studying English in an English-speaking country is that students can enhance all their English skills with the support of good facilities. Firstly, surrounding environment with full-time speaking English wherever students go may help them improve speaking and listening dramatically. Furthermore, they have enormous oppotunities to approach a new culture and the modern living style in most English speaking countries. Those lead to the deeper understanding in English and indirectly make students' reading and writing skills become better. In brief, English skills will rise up when students live in an English speaking country.

Although there are some advantages, studying English in an English speaking country still have some disadvantages.

The primary negative for studying English in an English speaking country is that there are various obstacles when living alone in the new country. Many students who have not left their home before feel shocked with the new culture and they usually find difficult to live independently because of the lack of family support. --That was a very well-written sentence! In addition, most English speaking countries are developed. As a consequence, many students may encounter with the lure of the fashionable and luxurious society and they plunge themselves into that society without concious thinking. This needs a bit of development. Are you saying that will fall into the hedonistic lifestyle of the decadent Americans? What are the real dangers you're talking about?

Another disadvantage of studying English in an English speaking country is the financial problems. Living overseas for many years in order to studying may cost a large amount of money. For example, the aggregate of living cost and tuition fees for one year study in Australia may cost around 30,000 dollars. Moreover, the cost can increase each year as a result of inflation all over the world and that can be a burden for students' family finance.

In conclusion, this essay has identified both positive and negative aspects of studying English in an English speaking country. Despite the advantages to improve all English skills, it still have a pressure for students and their family. Consequently, students should think carefully about studying overseas to make sure that they can adapt easily to new environment. You list only "adapt" but you mention the financial aspect too. I think you should add something about that to your final sentence.

Re: Tag Questions

Grammar Geek — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:38:25 GMT

Yen, you're colleague should take longer lunch breaks.

First, don't remove the comma. It does affectn't the tag aspect at all, but it's generally accepted to put a comma before the conjunction when you have two independent clauses. Even if you omit it, there's no resulting change to the tag.

The tag works with the final part of the sentence: THEY hadn't found it. As explained in the very solid post above, if you have a negative, you keep the same subject, and switch to postive. They hadn't, had they?

The subject is THEY, not IT, so the tag requires THEY. Your colleague's answer would work only with "but IT had never been found, had it?"

Just point out the logic of this - the tag must agree with the subject. "It" is not the subject.

Re: Tag Questions

Cool Breeze — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:21:39 GMT

yen75
Oh, and one more thing. What if the comma is omitted? Would there be a difference in the tag?

No difference - and don't leave out the comma either! Tag questions are easy. These rules will help you out:

Positive - negative:

You saw him, didn't you?

He can swim, can't he?

Negative - positive:

You didn't see him, did you?

You can't swim, can you?

Let's - shall we:

Let's go out, shall we?

Imperative - will/won't you:

Come here, will/won't you?

Re: not / neither / nor

Avangi — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:50:57 GMT

Tanit

(From M. Swan, 2005, Practical English Usage, 3rd edition. OUP. para. 370.5 "Two negative ideas: not ... or / not ... nor")

Swan

When not refers to two or more verbs, nouns, adjectives etc, we usually join them with or.
- - - - - - - - -
However, we can use not after a pause, to separate and emphasise a second verb, adjective etc.
Our main need is not food, nor money. It is education. (More emphatic than ... food or money.)
She didn't phone that day, nor the next day. (More emphatic than ... or the next day.)
Note that neither cannot be used in this way.

(emphasis in the original text)

Are Swan's examples grammatically fine but unnatural?
If you have the feeling they are unnatural, could it be a case of BrE versus AmE?
If they are natural, what's the problem with my sentence (besides lacking a comma)?

Hi Tanit, sorry for the delay. I haven't been blessed by an inspiration.

It looks like Swan is speaking of the deliberate, intentional use of not/nor to emphasize the second noun. I agree that when using "or" the first noun strongly predominates and the second simply trails in the dust. The "nor" coupled with the pause/comma restores the second noun at least to equal status.

As I said before, I can't speak to the grammar. Your source is the only one I've been privy to. I accept it's naturalness with the caveat that it must be a bold comma.

Thanks for the discussion and for your patience, - A.

Re: not / neither / nor

Tanit — Sat, 16 Feb 2008 11:38:35 GMT

Hi Avangi,

I'm really glad you commented on my sentence.
I look up to natives (and you are a native, if I'm not mistaken!) because they "feel" whether a sentence reads fine without having to double-check any grammar books. However, as I said, I'm not a native, so let me quote one of my books.

(From M. Swan, 2005, Practical English Usage, 3rd edition. OUP. para. 370.5 "Two negative ideas: not ... or / not ... nor")

Swan

When not refers to two or more verbs, nouns, adjectives etc, we usually join them with or.

A series of example with not ... or follows. Afterwards, we can read what I quote below.

Swan

However, we can use not after a pause, to separate and emphasise a second verb, adjective etc.
Our main need is not food, nor money. It is education. (More emphatic than ... food or money.)
She didn't phone that day, nor the next day. (More emphatic than ... or the next day.)
Note that neither cannot be used in this way.

(emphasis in the original text)

As I said earlier in this post, I trust natives' feelings, so I'd like you to comment on Swan's examples.
Here are some questions I'd like to ask:

Are Swan's examples grammatically fine but unnatural?
If you have the feeling they are unnatural, could it be a case of BrE versus AmE?
If they are natural, what's the problem with my sentence (besides lacking a comma)?

Please notice I'm not defending my sentence stubbornly ... I only want to further my knowledge!
Many thanks!

Re: this is my first Gre issue ,please help me to correct it

Mister Micawber — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 04:22:04 GMT

Hello Ipkqi, and welcome to English forums. I have deleted unnecessary verbiage and underlined other problem areas:

When it comes to ~~talk about~~ cooperation, most people ~~seem to~~ tend to choose partners who have the same views ~~with them~~. Because they think disagreement can cause stress and inhibit learning ~~as the author said~~ [Do not mention 'the author'; the question is not a part of the essay]. But in my opinion, learning or debating with those whose views contradict ours can not solely help us to find ~~out the~~ flaws in our views but also to make us think different.

~~It is true that~~ disadvantages such as stress brought out from leaning or debating with people who have contradictive views cannot be ingored ,and they do hold negative effects on individual progress.Someone who always feels stress may easily change his ~~idea~~ though there's [Do not use contractions in essays] nothing wrong in his views .Unfortunly ,~~there do exist~~ many people ~~who~~ are not confident ~~and brave~~ enough to insist their views.

But we cannot neglect the positive effects of ~~the~~ contradictive views.~~There is no doubt that~~ nobody can make sure that his views are completely correct and ~~do not need to be improved little more~~ need no improvement. In actual, people who have similar views always make the same mistakes consciously [??]. Admittedly, by a strict and comprehensive look-over which would take more time and energy ,the flaws might be found ~~out~~, but the angles from which we analyze problems would not get changed. In other words ,a wider sight needs more general angles that can only be obtained from different views, and most of time "different" means contradictive.

Furthermore, sharing views with those who disagree with us may help to prove our views. For instance ,in 1678 ,~~Physicist~~ Huygens advanced a series of theorems on discribing behaviors of light, but Poisson, another physicist, thought Huygens' theory were wrong ,and then Poisson made some experiments in order to prove his thought .But eventually Poisson's experiments proved Huygens was right adversely [??]. Suppose that Huygens did not publicize his theory so that Poisson didn't know that, maybe he would ever be suspecious of the theroy of his own.

~~From what has been discussed above, we can come to the conclusion that~~ there's no denying the fact that sometimes contradictive views can be negative,but the benefits can overweigh the disadvantages.

Please check your spelling before submitting essays. Commas and full stops have no blank space before and one blank space after.

(Unknown 22884)OHHH I FINALLY CAN POST!!!

Jen001 — Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:51:40 GMT

"The Change of the Characteristics in the passage from The Hours"

The passage from the novel The Hours by Michael Cunningham is intriguing. The passage illustrates the difference between the character's characteristics in different time settings: past and present. This difference is clearly shown through the contrasting structure, imagery and language.

The structure reflects the division of the time setting and helps to contrast the different characteristics. The passage has two paragraphs, each describing the character's thoughts and perception about a same place, of the past and present. The length of each paragraph is different; the one from the past is much longer than the other one from the present. This can be related to each of the paragraph's sentence construction. In the first paragraph, about the past, the lengths of the sentences are very long. The first sentence takes eight lines, lengthened continuously within commas, semi-colons and colons. In fact, in one sentence, there are five commas, five semi-colons and a colon. This overly-continued sentence gives a sense of unfiltered, informal, and unrestricted flowing of thoughts. Moreover, the use of brackets, âsome sort of wood(cedar? Camphor?),â seems to be less sophisticated, compared to using dashes or other punctuations of the same function. However, in the second paragraph of the present, the sentence construction is shown contrastingly. The paragraph starts with a short simple sentence: âShe turns down Bleecker, goes up Thomson.â Also, in this paragraph, there are four sentences in six lines, and three of the four sentences are written in simple sentence, including the example above. Although there are a few commas in some of the sentences, there is no semi-colon, but only a colon in the last sentence. The colon is used in a very appropriate way, functioning to introduce the list of âthingsâ, such as âjewelryâ and âjackets.â Thus, within the brief and concise sentence construction, the character in the present appears to be more mature, filtered and sophisticated than in the past. However, as a result of that, the sense of youthful, unfiltered freedom cannot be found anymore in the present.

In addition to the structure, the contrasting imagery of each paragraph demonstrates further differences of the characteristic in the past and present. As both paragraphs are of the same setting, the image of the same place is described at each time. So, the consistent place makes the comparison between the two more distinctive and reliable. The imagery of the place is very vivid in the past, not only within the visual sense, but also within the auditory and olfactory senses, whereas that of the past only relies on the sense of sight. For example, in the past, âthe neighborhoodâ is depicted as âthe center of something new and wildâ in âthe city where the sound of guitars drifted all nightâ and âwhere the stores â¦ smelled the way â¦ Arab bazaars must smell.â This is detail, imaginative and lively, even the âArab bazaarsâ creates a somewhat mystical and adventurous atmosphere. This interesting and passionate depiction is being minimized in the present into three words: an âimitation of itself.â It is now âa watered-down carnival for tourists,â which gives a sense of inactivity and boredom. Also, the stores now âall sell essentially the same things,â such as âsouvenir T-shirts.â This seems to be dull, with no excitement or creativity or passion. This changed imagery, depicted by the character, rather shows the change in the character's perception. The change in perception is demonstrated more clearly within the notion of the âdoorâ and âalley.â In the past, she says, âif you passed through the wrong door or down the wrong alley you would meet a fate,â however, in the present, she âknows that behind these doors, and down these alleys lies nothing more or less than people living their lives.â In the past, she seems to be more concerned with the 'inner' world of thought or imagination. Whereas in the present, she seems to be more grounded in the external world of physical reality. As like the previously discussed change in the sentence structure, she is now more sophisticated, knowledgeable and realistic than the past. Also, as like the image of the place, her perception changed from the creative, interesting and adventurous to the boring, predictable and filtered way. Thus, the contrasting imagery of the past and present reflects the similar change in the character's perception.

While the structure and the imagery convey the distinctive change in the characteristics of the character, the contrasting use of language supports those differences. More specifically, the diction [dash]shown in the past and the present[dash] is comparable. Reflecting the imagery of the varied senses, the words and expressions used in the past are also varied and animated, such as âincense and richâ and âdung-y dustâ describing the smell of the stores. These two expressions, âincense and richâ and âdung-y dustâ are contrasting; they express the diversity of the object. Moreover, the speaker creates a non-existing adjective, âdung-y.â The extra adding of â-yâ grants a more animated image, and it gives a sense of freedom and even somewhat childishness. The âsmellâ is then described as âsomething fruitily, fertilely rotting.â Again, she creates a non-existing adverb, âfruitily,â expressing the scent rather vividly, which would be sour as it ârots.â The other adverb âfertilelyâ contributes to create a sense of abundance and richness of the imagery. However, the use of those two positive adverbs, modifying the negative verb ârottingâ seems to be oxymoron in âfruit[full]â or âfertile,â as well as the use of adjective âdisreputable,â following ânew and wild.â The oxymoron adds an unpredictable sense to the imagery and hence to the depicter's thoughts. On the other hand, in the present, the adjectives used to describe the âcityâ and the âstores,â are ânothing,â âless,â âsame,â and âstill.â All of them are negative and reflect the boredom, dullness and hopelessness. More significantly, the speaker uses the adverb, âGrotesquelyâ before describing how âthe same bars and coffeehouses are still [th]ereâ, showing the character's cynical characteristic. So does the use of the adjective âcheapâ for the goods at the stores. Thus, in the past, the character uses language interestingly [dash] it is diverse, lively and creative [dash] whereas that of the past is inactive, hopeless and cynical. These differences are directly reflecting the character's contrasting, changed characteristic.

The change of the characteristic seems to be abrupt. As a cause, something would have happened to her, that is not shown in the passage. However, an assumption can be drawn within the evidences from the passage. There is a shift in the first paragraph within âHere,â showing the shifted tense from the past to the past perfect. In the past perfect, there is a scene of Clarissa, the major character, and her boyfriend Richard. She seems to appreciate Richard a lot, for example, she does not use the pronoun 'he' for âRichard,â even though he is the only male character. So, in a sentence, Richard is successively repeated three times, âwith Richard, when Richard â¦ when Richard.â Moreover, she describes his appearance in detail; he âwas nineteen,â âa firm-featured, hard-eyed, not-quite-beautiful dark-haired boy with an impossibly long and graceful, very pale neck.â So, to describe Richard, she combines an adjective and a noun to create a single adjective, such as âhard-eyed.â This shows her seriousness about describing him precisely. His âimpossibly longâ and âvery paleâ neck would seem negative, if not for the complementary adjective âgraceful.â Also, the adverb âimpossiblyâ gives a sense of special and unusual feeling for the person. Besides the use of language, the use of punctuation should also be noted. There are many commas, causing the sentences to seem choppy. This would be imitating the feeling of uncertainty and the tension in the situation. The uncertainty of the situation is shown in the line, ââ¦about what? A kiss? Had Richard kissed her, or had she, Clarissaâ¦,â also the tension created as they âhad certainly argued.â Then, the reason for the âargu[ment]â is explained: âClarissa wanted her freedom and Richard wanted, well, too much.â It is notable that as Richard âwanted â¦ too muchâ relating to the âkiss,â the pronoun 'he' is used as âdidn't he always?â In this case, however, the pronoun 'he' seems to more likely indicate every 'man', rather than particularly âRichard.â Thereafter the paragraph ends, and the paragraph of the present starts. It is not sure whether the abrupt change in Clarissa's characteristic is due to âRichardâ or not. Although it is not, it is evident that Clarissa once considered and cared about him quite specially.

Despite of the uncertain reason, the change in the Clarissa's characteristic from the past to the present is shown clearly throughout the contrasting structure, imagery and language. The characteristic includes the thoughts and perception, which were unrestricted, unfiltered, creative and animated in the past; whereas in the present, they are shown restricted, filtered, dull and inactive. The change is extreme, but no particular evidence for the extremity is being suggested, except the short scene with Richard. Thus, this passage not only introduces the setting and the character, but also evokes the reader's curiosity: What has happened to Clarissa?

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I really really really appreciate for your help... Thank you..!

Re: Me vs. My Teacher

Grammar Geek — Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:40:15 GMT

I'm more surprised that she didn't object to especially special! It's common to but a comma before a conjunction that joins two independent clauses. In the negative, the comma makes a semantic difference. I think it's good style to include it.

I don't know why she objected to "there were no trees." Perhaps she thinks "there weren't any trees" is better. I don't agree with her correction on this one.

She must have felt that a dash was too informal for the writing. That's also a style thing. I uses dashes all the time, but it depends on the formality of the writing.

I completely disagree with her on this one. Your use of the colon was correct.

However, she may be picking up on the disdain you feel for her, and as a results, shemay be taking extra pains over your work. I would be careful about "laughing at her ignorance" too much. You may not agree with her style choices, but she's the one with the grade book.

the normal regular people sleep at night

Anonymous — Wed, 07 Nov 2007 07:20:11 GMT

I know that normal and regular are basically the same, if I was going to fix it would I use a comma or just eliminate one of the words?

What is this called? I tried searching, "multiple adjectives" and other things "double negative", etc. but I can't figure out what this is called..

Thanks in advance!