Search results for 'tag:Phrasal verbs tag:Whom' matching tags 'Phrasal verbs' and 'Whom'

Re: Pronoun question

CalifJim — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:42:32 GMT

Eddie88
What I was meaning with the preposition and objective case query, is that I want to know if the pronoun is still the objective case if it comes before the preposition.

No. A preposition governs case only in one direction. The preposition cannot govern a word that comes before it.

_____

One exception is the fronted pronoun whom. As I mentioned in a previous post, you can have whom in a question or in a relative clause.

[For whom are you waiting]?

The man [for whom I am waiting] is the head of the finance department.

But you can put whom at the beginning and the preposition at the end of the structure, like this:

[Whom are you waiting for]?

The man [whom I am waiting for] is the head of the finance department.

In these cases, the pronoun whom is governed by the preposition that comes at the end of the structure.

____

But be careful with phrasal verbs. They have an adverbial particle that sometimes looks like a preposition, and they often have a pronoun in the objective case that comes between the verb and the particle, so it looks like there's a preposition governing a pronoun before it. This is an illusion; it's the verb that is governing the case of its object.

Lucy found two stray kittens and decided to take them in.

play up something // play something up

Takoyaki-English — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:52:49 GMT

Hello.

"play up something // play something up"
- Ralph plays up his devotion to his parents, though he seldom even calls them.
- She's always playing up her friendships with famous people, most of whom she barely knows.

Is this usage of the phrasal verb rarely used in the US?

Re: 1: Whom are you voting to?

Anonymous — Mon, 04 Jun 2007 05:26:57 GMT

Look at - is a phrasal verb meaning to direct one's attention to something. i.e. She is looking at you.

Look on- has a competely different meaning and it was incorrect in the context of your sentences.

Re: Is by an adverb or a preposition in "laid by"?

Grammarian-bot — Tue, 15 Aug 2006 05:42:12 GMT

Grammar Geek wrote:
But you left out the "in," you didn't move it.

Well I was just following what Aperisic said about phrasal verbs with adverbs as particles. He gave the following example. you can check it in the above posts.

pay back - repay, take revenge

I pay back for everything.

pay - settle debt

back - in return

I pay for everything - still defines well that I settle debt, but says nothing why or to whom.

Re: Is by an adverb or a preposition in "laid by"?

Grammarian-bot — Mon, 14 Aug 2006 07:01:26 GMT

Aperisic wrote:
When we have a preposition

A preposition changes a verb in such a manner that without it almost always you can't know what the verb means at the end. The meaning of a phrasal verb is strongly divided between the verb and the particle and the two are inseparable. Next, we have a preposition when an object is needed and always and without exception is placed after the particle. [If we can still separate a particle and a verb with an object it is only because we have two objects (preface with: I'll preface the question with an explanation).]
When we have an adverb

We have an adverb when the verb holds the main part of the meaning. Its particle makes this meaning more precise or special. That is why, very frequently, we can place an object (especially pronouns) between a verb and its particle. In this case a particle defines a direction of action, the end or delay of action, space of action, action timing... (We could say that particle defines a vector of action :o) After an adverb in the phrasal verb we can place a regular preposition in the sentence as with any other verb.

pay back - repay, take revenge

I pay back for everything.

pay - settle debt

back - in return

I pay for everything - still defines well that I settle debt, but says nothing why or to whom.

patch up - to repair (temporarily)

I will patch it up.

patch - fix, arrange

up - improving + constructing + finishing + delaying

I patch it - still defines that I fix something, but it does not say that it is quickly or probably temporarily

Well, I appreciate your concern and effort over the subject but the explanation you have given hs raised some other confusions regarding some examples.

You said that when a paerticale is a preposition, the verb and the particle are closedly linked and that they are inseperable. Well consider the following example (with preposition particle)

This is the source from which these examples have been taken: http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/durrus/153/gramch27.html

abide by: adhere to We abided by the rules.

Even if we remove the particle (to), we can understand what the sentence is saying.

Similarly you said that when a particle is an adverb, the particle shows only the direction of the action and the main part of the meaning is held by the main verb. Consider the following example;

break in: make something new fit for use I broke in my new hiking shoes.

Here, if we remove the particle, the meaning of the sentence is completely distorted.

I broke my new hiking shoes.

Can you explain why is it so? Also can you tell me where did you learn all those rules. I have searched a lot on the net but could find any source which gives as extensive an explanation as you did.
[May be my evaluation of these examples is wrong.]

Re: Is by an adverb or a preposition in "laid by"?

Aperisic — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:36:31 GMT

Grammar Geek wrote:

So "to lay by" is a phrasal verb meaning "to store away"? New vocabulary for me!

But anyway, when you have a phrasal verb like that (or like "look up" (as a word in a dictionary) or "write down") - do the prepositions act like normal prepositions, or because they are inextricably linked to the verb, are they just treated as if they were part of the verb itself?

A particle in phrasal verbs

A particle after the phrasal verb could be

preposition (speak for...)
adverb (look up, write down...)

(Sometimes there are two particles but it is adverb + preposition combination.)

Both adverb and preposition change the meaning of a main verb in such a manner that without the particle the meaning of the verb would not be the same (or at least the meaning would not be stressed the same way).

Thus, an adverb or preposition is the essential part of a phrasal verb.

When we have a preposition

A preposition changes a verb in such a manner that without it almost always you can't know what the verb means at the end. The meaning of a phrasal verb is strongly divided between the verb and the particle and the two are inseparable. Next, we have a preposition when an object is needed and always and without exception is placed after the particle. [If we can still separate a particle and a verb with an object it is only because we have two objects (preface with: I'll preface the question with an explanation).]

speak for - to act as a representative

I'll speak for you.

speak - talk

for - instead of

Without a preposition:

I'll speak you ??? not only that it does not have the same meaning it does not have a meaning at all.

close on - to make a distance shorter

I close on him.

close - to put in a separate space

on - continuing + connecting + attacking

I close him - I put him in a separate space, different meaning

When we have an adverb

We have an adverb when the verb holds the main part of the meaning. Its particle makes this meaning more precise or special. That is why, very frequently, we can place an object (especially pronouns) between a verb and its particle. In this case a particle defines a direction of action, the end or delay of action, space of action, action timing... (We could say that particle defines a vector of action :o) After an adverb in the phrasal verb we can place a regular preposition in the sentence as with any other verb.

pay back - repay, take revenge

I pay back for everything.

pay - settle debt

back - in return

I pay for everything - still defines well that I settle debt, but says nothing why or to whom.

patch up - to repair (temporarily)

I will patch it up.

patch - fix, arrange

up - improving + constructing + finishing + delaying

I patch it - still defines that I fix something, but it does not say that it is quickly or probably temporarily

When a verb has a figurative meaning

Sometimes verb itself has a figurative meaning. This has nothing to do with a phrasal verb formation, though it can create difficulties in deciding what is what.

harp on - chatter annoyingly

harp - a noun not a verb, a large string instrument

on - continuation

hawk about - to try to sell something around

hawk - attack, hunt

about - around the place

These cases are rare, do not break the rules, and frequently belong to idioms.

A particle as an adverb or as a preposition

Sometimes the same particle serves as an adverb and as a preposition. However, this happens only when we have a regular phrasal verb with a preposition that has a meaning even without any object added

I'll get off bus. (off is a preposition, test1: I'll get bus ??? test2: I'll get bus off ???)

I'll get off here. (off is an adverb)

The wine soaked through the cotton. (through is a preposition, test1: The wine soaked the cotton. not the same meaning; test2: The wine soaked the cotton through. No, through says about a direction of action)

The wine soaked through and now it is gone. (through is an adverb)

Final note

A particle is always an essential part of the phrasal verb. In case a particle is a preposition it is so inseparable both in meaning and in position that we can consider them both together as one logical unit. In case a particle is an adverb the connection is not so strong and very frequently we can place an object between a verb and a particle (in case an object is a pronoun we have to do so). If a particle is an adverb it gives a precise definition of place, time, sense... of action, but the name of the action is contained in the verb. The position of an object is very important for a phrasal verb. If we can place an object between a particle and a verb (or a phrasal verb does not require an object at all) a particle is an adverb. [A double-object case is an exception.]

If you note that a particle added to a verb works on its own and does not follow any of the rules given here, it is probably not a phrasal verb at all.

Lay by case

Lay by is a phrasal verb.

Lay is a major action - to leave, put, set

by - defines place and time aside + postpone

Thus, lay by is in a group of phrasal verbs with adverbs and a normal usage of such verbs is

lay something by
lay by something

Source of confusion:

one can confuse lay and lie especially if past form is used (laid)
by is used in a passive form
by means near, next to
lay by is not as frequent as its synonym lay aside (Usually in discussions or dictionaries, you place both versions this way: lay something aside/by)

Thus, to use an example with lay by to explain to anyone how to use, anyhow a very complex subject of, phrasal verbs is a crime against humanity. Every normal person (including me) would think that by in laid by the crops is a preposition. I object such an attempt of teaching gravely. Additionally, it is a trick because a normal order of words of a phrasal verb is laid the crops by, and lay by is no exception.

In any case, I beg you, do not use laid by the crops to learn anything about phrasal verbs. You are going to confuse everything. It is not simple anything about phrasal verbs, I agree, but it is not infeasible either. Start with simple cases as given here above.

Re: Is by an adverb or a preposition in "laid by"?

Grammarian-bot — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 04:25:09 GMT

Inchoateknowledge wrote:
To lay by is a phrasal verb, and by is an adverbial particle belonging to the verb. what does the farmer lay by? his crops.

So, isn't it true that when a particle in a phrasal verb could be questioned by what or whom, it's a preposition (by).

Re: Is by an adverb or a preposition in "laid by"?

Anonymous — Thu, 10 Aug 2006 04:18:10 GMT

Inchoateknowledge wrote:
what does the farmer lay by? his crops.

So, isn't it true that when the particle in the phrasal verb answers the question what or whom, it's a preposition.

Differentiate between preposition and adverb.

Grammarian-bot — Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:13:53 GMT

Is the following explanation enough to find out the difference between a preposition and adverb used in a phrasal verb.. If not, then please can you give another alternative.

Many of the words in the preposition list can also be used as adverbs. The problem for you is to figure out when a word from the list is being used as an adverb or as a preposition. When in doubt, ask the questions whom or what after the word. If there is a noun or a pronoun to answer the question, then the word is a preposition with an object--a prepositional phrase. If there is not a noun or pronoun to answer whom or what, then the word you are worried about is an adverb.

Example: The girl looked over and then ran down the street.

Both the words "over" and "down" are on the preposition list. Say the word "over" and add "over what?" There is no what or whom word after "over." Now say "down what?" -- "down the street." There is a noun "street" which tells what after the word "down." Therefore, "down" must be a preposition with the prepositional phrase being "down the street."

( http://www.readbygrade3.com/prep.html )

These rules work for all those sentences that contains a preposition. See the following sentence;

Here (in the 1st sentence) on is a preposition and answers the question what.
1. I hadn't reckoned on being the center of attention. ( on what? on being the center of attention.)
We abided by the rules.
He accounted for the discrepancy.
They asked for an extension.
We are banking on good weather tomorrow.
Please bear with the delay.

But they doesn't work for this one;

Here on is not a preposition but an adverb and still answers the question what.
2. He kept on changing the subject. (on what? on changing the subject.)

GB

Differentiate between preposition and adverb.

Anonymous — Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:07:49 GMT

Is the following explanation enough to find out the difference between a preposition and adverb used in a phrasal verb.. If not, then please can you give another alternative.

Many of the words in the preposition list can also be used as adverbs. The problem for you is to figure out when a word from the list is being used as an adverb or as a preposition. When in doubt, ask the questions whom or what after the word. If there is a noun or a pronoun to answer the question, then the word is a preposition with an object--a prepositional phrase. If there is not a noun or pronoun to answer whom or what, then the word you are worried about is an adverb.

Example: The girl looked over and then ran down the street.

Both the words "over" and "down" are on the preposition list. Say the word "over" and add "over what?" There is no what or whom word after "over." Now say "down what?" -- "down the street." There is a noun "street" which tells what after the word "down." Therefore, "down" must be a preposition with the prepositional phrase being "down the street."

These rules work for all those sentences that contains a preposition. See the following sentence;

Here (in the 1st sentence) on is a preposition and answers the question what.
1. I hadn't reckoned on being the center of attention. ( on what? on being the center of attention.)
We abided by the rules.
He accounted for the discrepancy.
They asked for an extension.
We are banking on good weather tomorrow.
Please bear with the delay.

But they doesn't work for this one;

Here on is not a preposition but an adverb and still answers the question what.
2. He kept on changing the subject. (on what? on changing the subject.)

GB