Search results for 'tag:Prepositional verbs tag:Word order' matching tags 'Prepositional verbs' and 'Word order'

Re: Proficiency alongside "poverty".

Forbes — Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:39:45 GMT

Hi Cool Breeze

I thought that might be what you were getting at.

I think it is a mistake to equate complexity solely with the degree of inflectional morphology of a language.

I have never studied Finnish, but I would be willing to bet that at least one of the following is true:

1. that a language with at least 30 cases has a corresponding lack of prepositions

2. that word order is fairly free and is used to express different emphases

3. that the inflectional morphology, though complex, is regular

4. that it is perhaps not quite so difficult to learn once you begin to get the hang of it

I have to say that I have met one or two Finns and they do seem to relish the idea that Finnish is a "difficult" language. I have also met some "Swedish Finnish" (I am not sure what the correct term is) and they all tell me that they are bilingual in Swedish and Finnish. They will of course have been helped in acquiring Finnish because either they live in a bilingual community or started to learn the language at an early age (I am not sure how it works) so they would not have been prejudiced by any concept of "difficulty". I expect that your idea that Finnish is difficult is confirmed by the fact that you do not know many foreigners living in Finland who have mastered it. This will be because:

1. It is more difficult to learn any language when you are an adult

2. Someone who is working full time will not be able to devote more than an hour or two a week to learning the language

3. Everyone will find it more convenient to speak to foreigners in English and there is therefore little incentive for them to learn Finnish

4. You keep harping on about how difficult the language is and put them off!

(I live in Spain and all the above applies to expats.)

You think that English is "simple". I venture to suggest that this is because you started to learn it at an early age and were introduced to it gradually so that you did not perceive its difficulties; you acquired your mastery over a long period. Also, I suspect that Finns are "subjected" to English in a way that the English are not subjected to foreign languages. A lot can be learned without realising it.

Consider the following:

There is no single way of negating verbs in English. I do not eat, but I must not. I do not have any eggs, but I have not got any eggs.

There is no single way of forming questions. Do you come here a lot? but Can I go out?

It is not always easy to know when to use the continuous form of the verb. Try and explain why you can say Are you having cakes for tea? but cannot go into a shop and say Are you having cakes?

The meaning of prepositional verbs is not always transparent. John has got it in for me.

English is a highly analytic language and meaning is often derived from context:

A. You keep complaining. Have you got it in for me?

B. I asked you to bring in the shopping. Have you got it in for me?

These are just a tiny example of the complexities of English and they have nothing to do with inflectional morphology.

Re: Differ between a preposition and an adverb in a phrasal verb.

CalifJim — Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:15:17 GMT

They set a riot off seems acceptable, even though our preference seems to be for They set off a riot. (Note the article.) Here it is the selectional criteria that may be interfering. Substitute bomb for riot, and both They set off a bomb and They set a bomb off are fine, neither seeming to be necessarily much preferred over the other. In many cases, however, there is a preferred word order even when two different possibilities are present.

It is almost the mark of a truly phrasal verb (transitive) that it is separable.
It is almost the mark of a truly prepositional verb that it is inseparable.

Yet, there are indeterminate, shadowy cases - cases where the verb seems more phrasal (and idiomatic) than prepositional and yet is inseparable and acts in some ways like a prepositional verb.

How did he come by that fortune? How did he come by it? *How did he come it by?

There are a number of particles (up, down, in, out, on, off, away, back) which should make us very suspicious that we are dealing with a separable phrasal verb, and a number of them (with, without, by, for, at, across, of, from, to, into) which almost certainly indicate a prepositional verb. But there are some strange cases!

CJ

Re: Differ between a preposition and an adverb in a phrasal verb.

CalifJim — Wed, 16 Aug 2006 17:12:59 GMT