Search results for 'tag:Simple past tag:Subjunctives' matching tags 'Simple past' and 'Subjunctives'

Re: there had to be

CalifJim — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 06:57:38 GMT

pructus
âThere had to beâ .. Is it simple past tense as an indicative or is it a present tense as a subjunctive?

My subjunctive scouts have returned empty-handed.

Consider that a true subjunctive in a main clause is not found in English, certainly not the past subjunctive. It's the simple past indicative tense.

there had to be

pructus — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 05:55:11 GMT

Following is from âHarry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkabanâ. The situation is that Harry Potter failed in the Quidditch game for the first time.

Harry put his face to his knees, his hands gripping his hair. Fred grabbed his shoulder and shook it roughly.

âCâmon, Harry, youâve never missed the Snitch before.â

âThere had to be one time you didnât get it.â said George.

âThere had to beâ .. Is it simple past tense as an indicative or is it a present tense as a subjunctive?

Re: were to drive off

Avangi — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 16:25:19 GMT

No difference. The trend is away from the subjunctive. Most people are more comfortable with simple past. Only a few of us old farts are still hanging on. Either way, be sure your seat belt is fastened.

Best wishes, - A,.

Re: I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she had been

Avangi — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 03:17:20 GMT

Hi guys, I'm not sure I get the point. If the facts are that one thing happened in the simple past and two things both happened in the same time frame which was prior to that, why would we want to change those facts by altering the tenses out of respect to preference or frequency of use?

Re the subjunctive, "if" situations and "wish" situations are both typical uses which would call for "were." But many people prefer to avoid the subjunctive and use simple past.

- A.

Re: I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she had been

Avangi — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:28:14 GMT

Unfortunately, we don't have a "past - past perfect." The reference point (from one point of view) is "regretted" - simple past. "Hadn't been kinder" is previous to that. The regretting seems to have followed her death, so the lack of kindness and the period during which it occurred were in the same time frame, which was prior to the regretting.

What was your justification for the subjunctive? (I'm not saying there isn't one.) I was thinking that if she were still alive, etc. ??

- A.

Use of the subjunctive after "would rather"

MarvinTheMartian — Wed, 30 Apr 2008 19:49:51 GMT

I seem to have noticed that, when the object is not a person, "would rather" is often followed by the subjunctive mood instead of the simple past or the pluperfect. For instance, we say "I'd rather you joined me", but I rarely see: "I'd rather the meeting was canceled". Am I right in thinking that it would be better in this case to say: "I'd rather the meeting be canceled". How about the following sentences?

- "I'd rather the appointment be rescheduled."

- "I'd rather the meeting take place (or would take place) tomorrow"

- "If there's going to be a crisis, I'd rather it happen now than later."

Supposing that I'm right, what happens in the negative form? Should one say: "I'd rather the meeting didn't take place" or "I'd rather the meeting not take place (or wouldn't take place)"?

Re: if

Taka — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:16:05 GMT

MrPedantic wrote:

I see what you mean; but I think the distinction between type I and type II conditionals disappears, once the statement is reported. In effect, everything becomes "detached", i.e. "remote".

Your insight is amazingly deep, MrP!

If anything, in my opinion, the reason why it has the air of 'detachmet' or 'remoteness' is not that it is reported but that it has the past form; the past form of a verb implies something detatched, remorte, whether it's about the past or about somthing you would psychologically distance yourself from.

Yes. I kind of knew you might point it out.

But then why this?

MrPedantic wrote:
Taka wrote:

Parents and psychologists got the idea that if real fear and harsh punishment were removed from child training, children would develop into better happier and kinder adults.

About the part in red, is it the subjunctive mood, or the simple past?

My initial reaction is that the passage in red reports:

1. If real fear and harsh punishment are removed from child training, children will develop into better, happier and kinder adults.

However, "ideas" are often proposed in tentative terms. Therefore the red part might also report:

2. If real fear and harsh punishment were removed from child training, children would develop into better, happier and kinder adults.

Why is your initial reaction that it's a direct report, and why do you think the possibility that it was proposed in tentative terms is slim?

Re: if

MrPedantic — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:18:14 GMT

Taka wrote:

Parents and psychologists got the idea that if real fear and harsh punishment were removed from child training, children would develop into better happier and kinder adults.

About the part in red, is it the subjunctive mood, or the simple past?

My initial reaction is that the passage in red reports:

1. If real fear and harsh punishment are removed from child training, children will develop into better, happier and kinder adults.

However, "ideas" are often proposed in tentative terms. Therefore the red part might also report:

2. If real fear and harsh punishment were removed from child training, children would develop into better, happier and kinder adults.

(I say "reports", but "pseudo-reports" might be a better term: it's likely that the writer has simply put the "idea" into his own words, without reference to any original formulation.)

MrP

Re: if

Taka — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:51:30 GMT

Yankee wrote:
Hi Taka

Your sentence reports what parents and psychologists thought/believed (i.e. "the idea they got"). If these parents and psycologists felt quite sure about the theory, the direct thought would have been this:
"If real fear and harsh punishment are removed from child training, children will develop into better happier and kinder adults."

It seems likely to me that the sentence from your text is simply the "reported speech" version of the sentence above.

Amy,

So you don't think it's really the subjunctive, but the simple past (i.e. the simple past in sync with 'Parents and psychologists got the idea': the sequence of tenses)?

Re: if

Taka — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:03:44 GMT

Hoa Thai wrote:
"Yes, I did. But I don't know how it is related to your guess that it's, if anything, the indicative 'were'."
Hi,

Read it again, and you should find that, according to American Heritage, subjunctive were is hardly used now-a-days.

If you rather see me show it again, here it is:
" .... over the last 200 years even well-respected writers have tended to use the indicative ...." from American Heritage.

That the best that I can explain why I guessed so.

Oh, I see. So you think it's seemingly the indicative, but the entire sentence is still the subjunctive, not the simple past tense, like MH's ( b ).

Hmm...I wonder if it's really so...