Search results for 'tag:Subjunctives tag:Direct questions' matching tags 'Subjunctives' and 'Direct questions'

Re: Is there any difference of nuance between the two?

Hoa Thai — Sun, 03 Feb 2008 04:49:34 GMT

Anonymous wrote:
Thank you all for your replying to my stupid question. I really appreciate it.

Hi Anon,

In contrary, I donât think your question is stupid. It brings up an issue that has stirred many good discussions in this forum and elsewhere. Here is an extracted text that represents one of the views regarding subjunctive mood - http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html:

âEnglish has had a subjunctive mood since Old English times, but most of the functions of the old subjunctive have been taken over by auxiliary verbs like may and should, and the subjunctive survives only in very limited situations. It has a present and past form. The present form is identical to the base form of the verb, so you only notice it in the third person singular, which has no final -s, and in the case of the verb be, which has the form be instead of am, is, and are.

We insist that he do the job properly.
Whether he be opposed to the plan or not, we must seek his opinion.

The past subjunctive is sometimes called the were subjunctive, since were is the only subjunctive form that is distinct from the indicative past tense.

If he were sorry, heâd have apologized by now.
Suppose she were to resign, what would you do then?

According to traditional rules, you use the subjunctive to describe an occurrence that you have presupposed to be contrary to fact: If I were ten years younger, I would consider entering the marathon. â¦ When the situation described by the if clause is not presupposed to be false, however, that clause must contain an indicative verb.... He would always call her from the office if he was (not were) going to be late for dinner.

Another traditional rule states that you are not supposed to use the subjunctive following verbs such as ask or wonder in if clauses that express indirect questions, even if the content of the question is presumed to be contrary to fact: We wondered if dinner was (not were) included in the room price. Some of the people we met even asked us if California was (not were) an island.

In practice, of course, many people ignore the rules. In fact, over the last 200 years even well-respected writers have tended to use the indicative was where the traditional rule would require the subjunctive were. A usage such as If I was the only boy in the world may break the rules, but it sounds perfectly natural.â

As you have seen, Amy showed us a graceful exit from being half right (or half wrong) by not using either was or were - a lesson for us to recognize the good English, which ârarely sparks the expressed or unexpressed reaction âThatâs not Good English,â either from those who really do know better or from those who merely think they do.â â Edward D. Johnson, The Handbook of Good English.

Re: wish clauses

Yankee — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:22:29 GMT

Goodman wrote:
Yankee wrote:
Did you read the rest of my post, MrC? I attempted to make it clear why YL's sentence works.

The danger in stating absolute rules in prescriptive grammar is that doing so doesn't allow for legitimate exceptions.
For example, many grammar books state that the word 'would' may not be used in an IF-clause. That is incorrect. While that rule is usually true, there are times when using 'would' is perfectly acceptable and grammatical in an IF-clause.

Hi Amy,

We donât always agree on everything but I do respect your credentials in English. If you donât mind, I would like to hear your opinions. The correct usage of âwereâ and âwasâ with the âI wishâ construction definitely has become a heated debate. According to traditional English (the kind I have learned), the âI wish I wereâ or âifâ and several other conditional constructions are called âsubjunctiveâ which most native and learners are very familiar with. There are few of those who believe âI wish I was â¦â is also correct. Itâs true that many people use it this way, however, it doesnât mean itâs a changing trend, and therefore itâs correct to use. True, the user may say whatever he prefers. But when we are on this forum to discuss English, don't you think we all need to conform to the rules of the traditional English? Do you agree? Many respected grammar books now accept 'was' in addition to 'were' in Type 2 IF-sentences as well as in 'wish' sentences. Personally, I would still make it a point to use 'were' in a formal context, but the use of 'was' does seem to be on the rise -- especially in informal contexts.

Having said that, based on the principle of subjunctive, this âwas " usage is incorrect in my opinion, whether itâs accepted as mainstream English or otherwise. If something is accepted in mainstream English, why would you want to reject it completely? Obviously, even the English Authorities have varying degrees of opinions, some said itâs incorrect while some said itâs acceptable. My argument is not so much to find out who is right, rather, what the believersâ argument is based on. Clearly the âI wish I â¦..â is a conditional sentence, which is âsubjunctiveâ. So if one insists on using this âI wish I wasâ construction and to have the twisted attitude to ask why I keep insisting on the rules of subjunctive, I feel the warped discussion is over. If you donât mind, would shed some light on the subject? And would you call ithe "was" usage a changing trend and therefore itâs acceptable? Language is a living, breathing animal. It changes and grows with time. Parts of it sometimes die, new usages sprout. It changes because of actual usage, often in spite of what grammarians would have us do. If yo ufeel uncomfortable answering these direct questions, I do understand.

Thanks

Re: wish clauses

Goodman — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 17:04:13 GMT

Yankee wrote:
Did you read the rest of my post, MrC? I attempted to make it clear why YL's sentence works.

The danger in stating absolute rules in prescriptive grammar is that doing so doesn't allow for legitimate exceptions.
For example, many grammar books state that the word 'would' may not be used in an IF-clause. That is incorrect. While that rule is usually true, there are times when using 'would' is perfectly acceptable and grammatical in an IF-clause.

Hi Amy,

We donât always agree on everything but I do respect your credentials in English. If you donât mind, I would like to hear your opinions. The correct usage of âwereâ and âwasâ with the âI wishâ construction definitely has become a heated debate. According to traditional English (the kind I have learned), the âI wish I wereâ or âifâ and several other conditional constructions are called âsubjunctiveâ which most native and learners are very familiar with. There are few of those who believe âI wish I was â¦â is also correct. Itâs true that many people use it this way, however, it doesnât mean itâs a changing trend, and therefore itâs correct to use. True, the user may say whatever he prefers. But when we are on this forum to discuss English, don't you think we all need to conform to the rules of the traditional English? Do you agree?

Having said that, based on the principle of subjunctive, this âwas " usage is incorrect in my opinion, whether itâs accepted as mainstream English or otherwise. Obviously, even the English Authorities have varying degrees of opinions, some said itâs incorrect while some said itâs acceptable. My argument is not so much to find out who is right, rather, what the believersâ argument is based on. Clearly the âI wish I â¦..â is a conditional sentence, which is âsubjunctiveâ. So if one insists on using this âI wish I wasâ construction and to have the twisted attitude to ask why I keep insisting on the rules of subjunctive, I feel the warped discussion is over. If you donât mind, would shed some light on the subject? And would you call ithe "was" usage a changing trend and therefore itâs acceptable? If yo ufeel uncomfortable answering these direct questions, I do understand.

Thanks

would you mind if you did

Kilimanjaro — Thu, 28 Sep 2006 22:51:38 GMT

1- Would you mind if you opened the window? (This sounds wrong as it simply expresses a request, which means we can not use YOU in requests formed in subjunctive mood)

2- Would you mind if you lost a million pounds at cards? ( This sounds ok, cause it asks for a direct answer in 2nd conditional subjunctive mood"

3-Would you mind if you did my homework? (This sounds sort of between request and yes/no question)

So I reckon; 1 is wrong , 2 is correct, 3 is correct only as a direct question - not as a request)

I just need your confirmation for the usage of the above statements. Am I right or wrong in my estimation?

Re: Conditional (bis)

just the truth — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 17:15:01 GMT

1) Would you please help me finish these clauses ?

a) If you were to give him a chanceâ¦
b) If you were to fail â¦

c) Would it be possible to use the indicative âIf you ARE â¦â in the above clauses ? What difference would it make?

JTT: It's theoretically possible but the more common use is, "If you give him ..." ; "If you fail ..."

==============

2) How can I make a polite request using âIf + will or wouldâ?

If you will / would â¦.

JTT: Both are polite, more so than .

If you would [be so kind as to] {do something}.

, being less polite, is often used when you ask someone to do something while you, at the same time will do something.

If you'll help me with my move, I'll help you with yours.

=================

4) If our documents had been in order we could have left at once. (âcouldâ here expresses ability or permission or both ?)

JTT: means "possiblity"; it would have been possible. There could be {it's possible} that there is an element of permission in there.

==============

5) Why do we use the subjunctive in one sentence and the indicative in the other ?

a) If I WERE riding a bicycle I would be much happier.
(difference with âIf I WAS riding a bicycleâ¦â?)

b) If my car WAS working I could / would drive you to the station. (difference with âmy car WERE workingâ¦â?)

JTT: ENLs use both forms because both forms have identical meanings. The subjunctive is a remnant of an older system. All subjunctive forms have other forms tha perform the same semantic task. There are differences in levels of formality. For all that is required to form a "subjunctive meaning" is a past tense FORM.

=================

6) Do sentences a) + b) have the same meaning ?

a) If he had been able to see it clearly, he would remember it better. (now)

b) If he could see it clearly, he would remember it better.

c) If he had been able to see it clearly, he would have remembered it better. (then)

I donât like these examples because their meaning is not clear, would you have better examples of this kind ?

JTT: Examples a) & c) could have the same meaning, could both refer to the same situation. The focus is just slightly different. Let's do an example to illustrate.

If I were Hela, I would be female. {my focus on the state of being a female}

If I were Hela, I would have been born a female/in Greece/to Mr & Mrs {___}.

{here my focus has shifted to your birth}

As you can see, Hela, the style chosen depends upon the context, what it is that you want to say.

================

7) a) Are the future and the conditional incompatible with the following expressions ?

unless, except if, provided/providing that, on condition that, as/so long as, suppose/supposing that, what if, in case, if only.

b) would you please give me examples with âexcept ifâ?

JTT: At first blush, I don't see why not, Hela, but feeding you examples won't, to my mind be as worthwhile as you making some of your own. That way it will be easier to spot mistakes and rectifiy them.

c) Is it true that âunlessâ cannot be used in Type 2 conditional and in indirect questions?

What about: âI would not attempt â¦ (what can I say here ?) unless I were sure of succeeding.â ?

JTT: Again, I don't see why "unless" can't be used. There may be some specific reasons for some circumstances.

âI would not attempt it unless I were sure of succeeding.â

âI would not attempt â¦ (what can I say here ) unless I were sure of succeeding.â

JTT:

You can say almost anything here, Hela; language is about the infinite.

Conditional (bis)

hela — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 16:21:10 GMT

Dear teachers,

As usual, I'll ask many questions in one post but you can, of course, answer them at your convenience.

1) Would you please help me finish these clauses ?

a) If you were to give him a chanceâ¦
b) If you were to fail â¦

c) Would it be possible to use the indicative âIf you ARE â¦â in the above clauses ? What difference would it make?

2) How can I make a polite request using âIf + will or wouldâ?

If you will / would â¦.

3) What do you call the mood/tense (?) that follows âwouldâ in the following sentences ?

a) If the Queen died, she would BE SUCCEEDED by her son Charles. (Bare infinitive + past participle ?)

b) If I were rich I would BE LYING in the sun on a tropical island. (Bare infinitive + present participle ??)

c) If it had rained yesterday, there wouldnât HAVE BEEN many people on the sea shore. (perfect infinitive)

d) If I had not got married, I would still HAVE BEEN LIVING abroad. (perfect infinitive + present participle ??)

4) If our documents had been in order we could have left at once. (âcouldâ here expresses ability or permission or both ?)

5) Why do we use the subjunctive in one sentence and the indicative in the other ?

a) If I WERE riding a bicycle I would be much happier.
(difference with âIf I WAS riding a bicycleâ¦â?)

b) If my car WAS working I could / would drive you to the station. (difference with âmy car WERE workingâ¦â?)

6) Do sentences a) + b) have the same meaning ?

a) If he had been able to see it clearly, he would remember it better. (now)

b) If he could see it clearly, he would remember it better.

c) If he had been able to see it clearly, he would have remembered it better. (then)

I donât like these examples because their meaning is not clear, would you have better examples of this kind ?

7) a) Are the future and the conditional incompatible with the following expressions ?

unless, except if, provided/providing that, on condition that, as/so long as, suppose/supposing that, what if, in case, if only.

b) would you please give me examples with âexcept ifâ?

c) Is it true that âunlessâ cannot be used in Type 2 conditional and in indirect questions?

What about: âI would not attempt â¦ (what can I say here ?) unless I were sure of succeeding.â ?

Thank you for your patience and understanding!
Best regards,
Hela