Search results for 'tag:Subjunctives tag:Grammar' matching tags 'Subjunctives' and 'Grammar'

Re: the grammar behind " , be it ..."

Avangi — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:51:31 GMT

You're right about the meaning. Since it's subjunctive, the ear (brain) takes it as conditional without a qualifying conjunction. You could say, "whether it be house or island."

- A.

Re: imperative mood in the third person?

Tanit — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:06:08 GMT

Cool Breeze
In traditional grammar (Otto Jespersen and the like), suffice and be in your examples are considered present subjunctives, not imperatives. I just wanted to mention this; if you prefer to call them imperatives, by all means, do!

Hi CB,

So far, we've seen in this thread that Italian and Spanish (two Latin-based languages, two inflected languages) both lack 3rd singular and 3rd plural imperative, and use the present subjunctive to fill this gap.

As for English, some different structures have here been presented (by the way, thank you all! )

Now I am curious. How does Finnish tackle the issue of expressing the imperative mood in the third person? Do you have an inflected form of the verb for it?

Many thanks.

Re: imperative mood in the third person?

Cool Breeze — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:05:44 GMT

MrPedantic
Some genuine third-person imperatives occur in older texts, e.g. Shakespeare's

1. Then every soldier kill his prisoners.

and survive in set phrases, e.g.

2. Suffice it to say...

3. So be it.

Hello Mr P

In traditional grammar (Otto Jespersen and the like), suffice and be in your examples are considered present subjunctives, not imperatives. I just wanted to mention this; if you prefer to call them imperatives, by all means, do!

Re: Some very basic grammar questions

CalifJim — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:40:49 GMT

They are all correct.

For lengthier discussions with lots of examples of the use of the past perfect tense after before,

see Re: before past perfect tense , past tense and Re: Past Simple or Past Perfect.

This is a common pattern for expressing "interruptive relationships" between actions. (Leaving university "interrupts" the normal course of events which would have led to exams; the sacking "interrupts" the normal course of events which would have led to an explanation of the behavior.) The main clause contains the "interrupting" action. The before clause contains the "interrupted" action. Because the interrupted action has not taken place, the past perfect may be considered a way of expressing a counterfactual, that is, it may be considered a subjunctive with family resemblances to the if clause of the third conditional, thus: if I had taken the final exam or if he had had a chance to explain.

imperative mood in the third person?

Tanit — Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:45:36 GMT

Hi,

Here goes the long story... Yesterday, I was talking with a girl from England who's been living here for nearly a year. She told me she was looking for an organization to join here, and on the basis of her background and beliefs I suggested she should join an Italian organization against death penalty named "Nessuno tocchi Caino" (sort of "Nobody is allowed to touch Cain", but in the imperative, so stronger, more emphatic and possibly literary). Even though she has a reasonable command of Italian, she couldn't understand that grammar structure in Italian, so I tried to translate it (and I did it, albeit with a long paraphrase).

However, that left me with a question: how do we express imperative mood in the third person (either plural or singular)? In Italian, the imperative mood only exists in the first plural person and in the second person, while for the third person (both singular and plural) we use the present subjunctive to express the idea of command or prohibition.
Let me try to write down some examples:

(2nd singular, command) Mangia la mela => Eat the apple
(2nd plural, command) Mangiate la mela => Eat the apple
(2nd singular, prohibition) Non mangiare la mela => Don't eat the apple
(2nd plural, prohibition) Non mangiate la mela => Don't eat the apple

Now, when I want to tell Mary what [John | John and Tom | nobody | everybody] must do, is that possible without any modal verb, using the imperative mood?
Which (if any) of the following would be fine?

(3rd singular, command) (che John) mangi la mela => John eat his apple [... hmm, don't think so, it could easily be mistaken for infinitive, right?] | Let John eat his apple (?)
(3rd plural, command) (che John e Tom) mangino la mela => John and Tom eat their apples (?) | Let John and Tom eat their apples (?)
(3rd plural, command) (che tutti) mangino la mela => Everybody eat their apples | Let everybody eat their apples (?)
(3rd, prohibition) (che) nessuno mangi la mela => Nobody eat their apples | Let nobody eat his apple (???) | Don't anybody eat their apples

(I've done a bit of search, but couldn't find anything both extensive and reliable )

Back to the original question, how should I have translated the name of that organization?
Nessuno tocchi Caino => Let nobody touch Cain | Don't anybody touch Cain | Nobody touch Cain (???)

Also, if you happen to know of any relevant references, please post them here.

Thank you!

Re: "All/any efforts should be made to see this happens."

Peaceblinkfriend — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:14:57 GMT

Thanks for replying Grammar Geek.

So the 'subjunctive mood' only applies when I want to be a spectator? Am I correct?

Also, I wonder how would the meaning implied by 'all' and 'any' differ?

Thank you

PBF

Re: submit or submits?

Cool Breeze — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 08:07:06 GMT

dave_amateur

in your example, I demand that he show his passport.
should i use show or shows when both deem fit to be correct? so if i use either of it, i am correct?

and with reference from your example, would it be correct to use submits in my example too?

there are so many rules and different practices in english that are driving me nuts...

Don't worry! English drives everybody nuts! And there are very few rules in English, by the way. That's why English grammar is so easy. What makes it interesting is that there is no absolute authority who judges what is wrong and what is right. Opinions differ. People are more or less unanimous about certain things and are guaranteed to disagree on some other things.

I have already said what I think about my example. I'm sure some other members on this forum think differently about it. The subjunctive sounds better to my ear in both my and your sentence.

Re: suggest

CalifJim — Mon, 21 Jul 2008 06:14:02 GMT

New2grammar
Isn't suggest subjective?

I think you mean "Doesn't suggest govern the subjunctive?", and the answer is "Yes, but only in its definition as offering advice -- not in its other meanings, such as the one being discussed here."

Re: favor

Avangi — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 01:58:07 GMT

New2grammar
Avangi, are you saying that's the reason "had" must be used?

I'm saying that you have choices, depending on what you wish to convey. You can look at "urgency" as being in your mind, or as being a factual circumstance. If you wish to imply that the asking and the urgency were contemporary, they should have the same tense, unless, as Marius suggests, you wish to use the subjunctive because of the "if."

- A.

Re: is/was/were

Philip — Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:59:11 GMT

Grammar Geek

Technically, you should not use "was" -- but you're going to hear that more and more as the subjunctive slowly disappears from American English.

We could set up "The Society For the Preservation Of the Use Of the Subjunctive In American English" [SPUSAE]. We could collect $2 annual dues. I'll volunteer to be treasurer for the first year. >>