Search results for 'tag:Subjunctives tag:Past perfect' matching tags 'Subjunctives' and 'Past perfect'

Re: Some very basic grammar questions

CalifJim — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:40:49 GMT

They are all correct.

For lengthier discussions with lots of examples of the use of the past perfect tense after before,

see Re: before past perfect tense , past tense and Re: Past Simple or Past Perfect.

This is a common pattern for expressing "interruptive relationships" between actions. (Leaving university "interrupts" the normal course of events which would have led to exams; the sacking "interrupts" the normal course of events which would have led to an explanation of the behavior.) The main clause contains the "interrupting" action. The before clause contains the "interrupted" action. Because the interrupted action has not taken place, the past perfect may be considered a way of expressing a counterfactual, that is, it may be considered a subjunctive with family resemblances to the if clause of the third conditional, thus: if I had taken the final exam or if he had had a chance to explain.

Re: would have had

CalifJim — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:23:38 GMT

Kooyeen
You never taught me those conditionals!

Maybe I thought you were better off not knowing. Or maybe you didn't ask.

Kooyeen
use the simple past instead of the subjunctive formed with the past perfect, in informal and casual English?

No. While it's true that people do often use the indicative for the subjunctive, that is not at issue here.

These are truly indicative all the way through. There is nothing subjunctive about them. The simple past in the if-clause is truly past in time, not a present hypothesis. Usually both clauses are in the past.

If you got there at 6, you were way too early. I'll bet no one was there.

If it was not OK with him for me to take the books, he certainly didn't show it.

If the suspect was at the Blue Gardenia at 8:00, he wasn't in the vicinity of the crime. Someone else must be the criminal.

The teacher was impossible to please. If you said "grammatical", he showed it was ungrammatical. If you said "ungrammatical", he proved it was grammatical. You couldn't win. If you took the course, you probably hated it as much as I did.

There's one thing you can be sure of: If a hurricane passed through that area, there was damage. No doubt about it.

It was well known in our town: If Brian was invited to a party, he got drunk, and if he got drunk, there was trouble.

Do you remember how Barney got so fat that year? If it was in the fridge, he ate it, no matter what "it" was!

Less formally, many of the main clauses above could have been said with "would have" with hardly any change in meaning, e.g., If it was in the fridge, he would have eaten it. Or even just "would": If it was in the fridge, he would eat it. (These use the "would of habit".)

_____

If he saw the bridge through the fog, it would have been a miracle.
I'd take the above example as the backshifted version of...
If he sees the bridge through the fog, it would be a miracle.
...and so "saw" should be taken as a simple past tense with the same meaning as the subjunctive "had seen". If he saw the bridge (but I don't think he did), it would have been a miracle!

Yes. Your backshift interpretation seems right to me. But I don't see this as necessarily subjunctive. It comes off as a sort of borderline case to my ear.

PS. ... would have baked you a cake is the usual expression!

Re: would have had

Kooyeen — Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:51:58 GMT

CalifJim
If he saw the bridge through the fog, it would have been a miracle.
I think these patterns are "mixed" because they are not true hypotheticals.
They are closer to purely past indicative statements like
If I was tired, it was understandable. (I had worked hard all day.)

Interesting! You never taught me those conditionals!
Does that mean that in English (like in Italian), it is possible to use the simple past instead of the subjunctive formed with the past perfect, in informal and casual English? The only example I know it's kind of common is substituting "knew" for "had known", for example "If I knew you would come, I would have baked you a pie!", instead of "If I had known..."
So, from your example, I understand that happens with other verbs too, right?

If he saw the bridge through the fog, it would have been a miracle.
I'd take the above example as the backshifted version of...
If he sees the bridge through the fog, it would be a miracle.
...and so "saw" should be taken as a simple past tense with the same meaning as the subjunctive "had seen". If he saw the bridge (but I don't think he did), it would have been a miracle!

Am I right? Can you tell me more? Thanks.

Re: past perfect in dependent clause

Marius Hancu — Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:52:52 GMT

Iamnewbie
Isn't it a Subjunctive Mood, is it?

Yes, you can look at it that way and that's a nice justification. Using CJ's example:

Mozart died before he had completed the Requiem Mass.

can be read as:

Mozart died before THE HYPOTHETICAL ACTION IN WHICH he would have completed the Requiem Mass.

Re: It would have/had been okay, if it were you.

Anonymous — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:01:56 GMT

I absolutely agree that would and had CAN go together particularly when expressing/stressing a past event which also ended in the past - it is after all merely the combination of subjunctive + past perfect. The following case sounds fine to my Midwest American (long lived in English) ears:

Policeman to woman: "Was your husband home at the time of the robbery?"
Woman: "No, he would had gone out by that time." (i.e. I'm not sure as I wasn't there either, but I'm almost certain that based on his normal actions he probably was not at home.)

Re: when past perfect is necessary?

Marius Hancu — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:49:52 GMT

He looked as if he had seen a ghost.

This is more complicated, because he had seen in this context is not past perfect indicative, but past perfect subjunctive mood here (they have the same form)

Read my posts in that thread:

Re: as if + backshift

where I'm saying among others:

Some prefer to concentrate on the mood here, and forget about the sequence of verbs, because when you have modality around, the tenses/timing are a bit mudied .... and I think that's a reasonable point of view.

Re: I regretted that I hadn't been kinder to her while she had been

Avangi — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:28:14 GMT

Unfortunately, we don't have a "past - past perfect." The reference point (from one point of view) is "regretted" - simple past. "Hadn't been kinder" is previous to that. The regretting seems to have followed her death, so the lack of kindness and the period during which it occurred were in the same time frame, which was prior to the regretting.

What was your justification for the subjunctive? (I'm not saying there isn't one.) I was thinking that if she were still alive, etc. ??

- A.

Re: Had he lived

MrPedantic — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 21:26:32 GMT

Hello Rotter,

I would think of it as a past perfect (or pluperfect) subjunctive. It is clearly counterfactual.

Best wishes,

MrP

Re: subjunctive and 2nd conditional

CalifJim — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 06:21:49 GMT

Believer
I think 2nd conditionals encompass those 1) that are hypothetical yet possible and 2) that are unreal (thus impossible to be realized in reality).

No. The traditional divisiion into the three conditional patterns is as follows:

1. If [present], (then) ... will ... REAL

2. If [past*], (then) ... would ... UNREAL

3. If [past perfect], (then) ... would have ... UNREAL, COUNTERFACTUAL

*The past is sometimes called the past subjunctive in this position. Only the verb to be has a special form (were in all persons and numbers) in this position.

Other combinations of tenses in these kinds of if patterns have no numeric designators (like fourth, fifth, or sixth conditional) except occasionally in specific textbooks which invent their own methods and terms for teaching purposes. Some writers consider all these other patterns mixed conditionals.

Examples:

1. If the water gets hot enough, it will boil.

2. If he put the picture up a little higher, it would look better.

3. If we had taken the medicine, we would not have got sick.

Don't take the idea of "real" and "unreal" too seriously. The first and second conditionals are often nearly identical in meaning. The first states the idea as a fact. The second states it as an imagined action.

If you press this button, the gate will open. (Fact. This always happens.)

If you pressed this button, the gate would open. (Information about what to do if you want to open the gate -- not that you necessarily want to open it just now.)

The third conditional is more obviously "unreal". Neither clause taken separately actually happened.

If you had pressed this button, the gate would have opened. (You didn't press the button, and the gate didn't open. But more than that, the gate didn't open because you didn't press the button.)

Re: Condtitional tense

Avangi — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 23:28:35 GMT

Anonymous
"If I was on vacation, the last thing I would care about would be if I had/have closed the fridge." Past perfect or present perfect...which one should be used...or both?

This is more interesting than it seems at first blush. My ear says you must use "had." But where is the time reference? I suppose we go by context. You'll be on vacation when you do the caring, so the act of closing / not closing is prior to going on vacation. Probably since you use "If I was on vacation" instead of "If I am on vacation, the vacation would count as past, so past perfect would be in order. (Don't you think it would be more fun to use subjunctive?)

But then what do you use with "If I am on vacation . . . ."? My ear says "will worry." Is that really future? If future goes with present, why can't present go with past? But my ear will not accept "if I have closed the fridge," except with, "If I am on vacation."

Best wishes, - A.