Search results for 'tag:Subjunctives tag:Verbs' matching tags 'Subjunctives' and 'Verbs'

Re: Suggest + "not do" - verb pattern

Tanit — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 07:15:00 GMT

CalifJim
But suggest also means bring to mind, and this is the meaning in your example sentences, so the grammatical structures for 'advisory' suggest don't apply. Issues of availability cannot give advice! So all you need is a that clause or a noun -- without any of those subjunctives!

Gosh! I cannot believe I got stuck on this one!!!

Thank you very much to both of you, CJ and YC.

Re: Suggest + "not do" - verb pattern

YoungCalifornian — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:50:46 GMT

But suggest also means bring to mind, and this is the meaning in your example sentences, so the grammatical structures for 'advisory' suggest don't apply. Issues of availability cannot give advice! So all you need is a that clause or a noun -- without any of those subjunctives!

Of course! I think I got lost in my own babbling and couldn't shift paradigms for those last three examples even though I knew they sounded awkward. Also, it was late at night for me...

Re: Suggest + "not do" - verb pattern

CalifJim — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:34:30 GMT

For suggest as give advice:

I [suggest / advise] (that) he do something. (affirmative pattern)

I [suggest / advise] (that) he not do something. (negative pattern)

But suggest also means bring to mind, and this is the meaning in your example sentences, so the grammatical structures for 'advisory' suggest don't apply. Issues of availability cannot give advice! So all you need is a that clause or a noun -- without any of those subjunctives!

Issues of availability ... suggested that members of the scientific committee might not need to be interviewed.

Issues of availability ... suggested a course of action in which members of the scientific community would not need to be interviewed.

Issues of availability ... suggested a research methodology by which interviews with members of the scientific community could be avoided.

Re: Suggest + "not do" - verb pattern

YoungCalifornian — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 11:33:12 GMT

Tanit
But I'm stuck with a sentence where "to do" is replaced by "not to do":

    a1) I suggest not doing X.                         (I reckon this is fine)
    a2) I suggest not to do X.                          (???)
    b1) I suggest [that] Y shouldn't do X.         (I reckon this is fine)
    b2) I suggest [that] Y [not do | don't] X.      (this sounds terribly bad!)

Your questions stem from the use of the mandative subjunctive, which arises in turn from the use of the verb "to suggest." However, you've complicated things by using the complicated predicate "to do X" in your sentences' subordinate clauses. I'm assuming that "Y" always represents a personal pronoun (or proper noun), but "X" could be either a demonstrative pronoun (or regular noun in certain cases) or a verb depending on your meaning.

a1) This construction is fine if "X" is a demonstrative pronoun, but incorrect if represents a verb.

a2) This construction is incorrect. If "X" is a demonstrative pronoun, the verb "to do" must be changed from the infinitive to the subjunctive and a personal pronoun added so that the sentence reads I suggest Y not do X. This makes the subordinate clause a content clause, which means that the word "that" could be added as you've done in example b2). The sentence will not work at all if "X" is a verb.

b1) While this construction is not grammatically incorrect, it can sound too passive when "suggest" and "should" are in close proximity. Anyway, that's assuming that "X" is once again a demonstrative pronoun. This construction will not work if "X" is a verb.

b2) It may not seem like it, but switching between "not do" or "don't" (i.e. "do not" ) dramatically changes this sentence. They cannot be used interchangably in this context. As I mentioned above, the "not do" construction works fine if "X" is a demonstrative pronoun. However, if "X" is a (subjunctive) verb then "do not" or "don't" (or does not/doesn't for singular third person pronouns) must be used.

I apologize if this sounds complicated, but it's a result of using an auxiliary verb in your example predicates. If you replace "to do X" with a simpler verb it would probably be clearer. Basically, your two options are to follow the verb "to suggest" with either a gerund or the subjunctive. Either way, the word "not" would precede the dependent verb should you choose to make it negative. Looking ahead, I've used the verb "to interview" in an example of each construction.

Gerund: I suggest (not) interviewing...
Subjunctive: I suggest (that) he (not) interview...

Here's the sentence I'm trying to write (it's for a research paper):

1. "Issues of availability, together with constraints on time and scope of the research, suggested not interviewing any member of the scientific committee."
2. "Issues of availability, together with constraints on time and scope of the research, suggested not to interview any member of the scientific committee."
3. "Issues of availability, together with constraints on time and scope of the research, suggested that no member of the scientific committee should be interviewed."

I'd go for no. 1 (no. 3 seems to carry a different meaning ... or am I wrong?), but I am not sure about that. What do you think?
I'm also trying (with little, if any, success) to work out the general pattern.

Both the first and third examples work. The first is the gerund construction, the third is the subjunctive construction. The second is incorrect. However, despite being technically correct, both the first and third examples still sound awkward. Ultimately, I think this is because it sounds strange for "issues" to suggest something directly. Typically they would suggest something to someone. For instance, I think that "Issues of availability... suggest not interviewing any member of the scientific committee to me" or "Issues of availability... suggest to me that no member of the scientific committee should be interviewed" both sound better.

Re: Am I right?

CalifJim — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 06:09:32 GMT

wholegrain
Then In this extract. but means merely:

"You cannot deny but that by the hazard of my life many a time I have saved yours, when (might your owne wills have prevailed) you would have starved"?

No. There is no sense in saying merely here. to deny merely (that) something is not English. The meaning in modern English is as follows:

You cannot deny that I have saved your life many times by [the hazard of / risking] my own when you would have starved (if you had had your own way).

Again you have a verb (deny) that triggers the subjunctive mood.

Re: Am I right?

wholegrain — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 02:37:56 GMT

CalifJim
wholegrain
But = only = merely = and nothing else or more???
No. but = [no meaning]
That is, but can be left out. In fact, in modern English it is left out, and the verb is in the indicative. In older English it is associated with the subjunctive mood (Note were lame.).
Older English: ... would not deny but that the key were lost.
Modern English: ... would not deny that the key was lost.
CJ

Are you sure?

Then In this extract. but means merely:

"You cannot deny but that by the hazard of my life many a time I have saved yours, when (might your owne wills have prevailed) you would have starved"?

Re: Am I right?

CalifJim — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 02:25:05 GMT

wholegrain
But = only = merely = and nothing else or more???

No. but = [no meaning]

That is, but can be left out. In fact, in modern English it is left out, and the verb is in the indicative. In older English it is associated with the subjunctive mood (Note were lame.).

Older English: ... would not deny but that the key were lost.

Modern English: ... would not deny that the key was lost.

Re: quote and the modal 'should'

Mister Micawber — Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:23:49 GMT

.
Yes, we use 'had to' for past 'must' since the verb is imperfect-- it hasn't a past form for this use.

Should after suggested, etc is a different should-- it is called putative-should, and is a mostly BrE equivalent of the subjunctive:

He suggested that I go to church (subjunctive) = He suggested that I should go to church. (putative should)

.

Re: when past perfect is necessary?

Marius Hancu — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:49:52 GMT

He looked as if he had seen a ghost.

This is more complicated, because he had seen in this context is not past perfect indicative, but past perfect subjunctive mood here (they have the same form)

Read my posts in that thread:

Re: as if + backshift

where I'm saying among others:

Some prefer to concentrate on the mood here, and forget about the sequence of verbs, because when you have modality around, the tenses/timing are a bit mudied .... and I think that's a reasonable point of view.

Re: Have Vs, Has

Yankee — Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:37:34 GMT

Hi Anon

I would prefer your second sentence, but both are grammatically correct.

Sentence 1 uses the present indicative of the verb have.
Sentence 2 uses the subjunctive form of have.