Search results for 'tag:Vocabulary tag:Speak english' matching tags 'Vocabulary' and 'Speak english'

Re: Vocabulary on cooking, server

Philip — Thu, 22 May 2008 14:04:15 GMT

Anonymous

Hi,

My friends and me are working as servers, waiter and cook assistant in an US restaurant. We are exchange student and still learning English. We don't have lots of vocabulary of this field. Can you give me some advice ? Thanks.

My friends and I are working as servers, waiter and cook's assistant in a U.S. restaurant. We are exchange students and are still learning English. We don't have a lot of vocabulary in this field.

Mr. M's advice is very good. I would just add that you should speak English among yourselves while on the job rather than your native language(s).

Re: 22/M/USA looking for friends for MSN. I speak English natively!

cantholdusdown — Sun, 18 May 2008 12:10:26 GMT

Hello to you :) My name's Isabella, I'm 15 and I'm from Sweden, I've been learning French for 3 years now and I might be going to France this summer and I would therefore really like to improve My skills in French! I know how to work with verbs and all that, but I make too many mistakes I believe and when I'm about to talk I don't have a very big vocabulary.. So I'm hoping for that to change (hopefully with your help and others) and would therefore love to become your friend ;)

Also; In my class I'm the best one in English, so maybe I can help you out with that as well! :D Hugs and kisses!

My msn is [removed by a mod, please add it to your profile]

Re: I Want To Be Fluent English Speaker How Please?

Anonymous — Tue, 25 Mar 2008 05:58:38 GMT

Hello to all,

I believe that to learn English depends of the interest of individual and depending of the English knowledge you wanted to learn. like for instance, if you want to speak English all you have to do is to listen very carefully to some tools such as CD, DVD, tapes etc. either audio or video, any kinds of topics as long as educational and knowledgeable and while you are listening just follow and speak what they are talking this is a training of the tongue or tongue twisting trying to develop proper accent, pronunciation, intonation etc, if any words you donât understand have your dictionary besides you and open it. next step just prepare any topics as guidelines [ prepare the main topics, sub topics and conclusion] prolong, elongate and expound the topics you wanted to discuss make it in English version at first you might have the difficulty to speak but try and try until your English would connect and connect at this point your trying to bridge the gap. What is needed in English is that at least you have many words to know {synonym and antonyms} is what i mean.

The basic training of English is that you have to speak English by any topics. I understand that for a person who lived {not speaking country have the difficulty to speak English} on my behalf, English education must start first on basic like for instance if you need English conversation find a person who could talk with you English, or else speak and talk English with yourself even if someone listening at you and say something you are a fool forget it. What is needed is you learn something and speak English. if you have the difficulty to write English just read books literatures etc at this point you can get many ideas and your vocabulary broadens, watch the period, punctuation, commas, etc, if you are not a good English listener try to listen English teachings, news whatever that could improve your English, the four pillars of English are: reading. Speaking, writing and listening, if you have this all then you can speak English although not fluent as what others did but at least you can communicate via reading, writing, listening and speak. Fluent English would follow donât give up keep trying until success.

I am a Filipino not an English speaker, writer, etc but in terms of communication i could communicate. For to me to learn English depends on individual. If we have the basic then we have to improve, have the desire, act on it, and apply no need a tutor individual interest is vital here. Donât be shy to speak English if the English is crooked and someone laughs at you accept it consider yourself that you are not an English person, perhaps the person who laughs at you donât know how to speak English and even to communicate with. Thereâs a saying goes: a noisy person have little knowledge than a silent one. in this world what is important is communication regardless of races, nationality and religion. a crooked English is better than nothing, a crooked or a carabao English has the opportunity to become fluent rather than nothing. but if you have nothing at all nobody blames except yourself, your making your own fate and destiny donât blame your parents and the government its your own decision for what you are now, your right decision now will be your future someday but if you donât plan or decision today do you think you have something to expect in the future. To speak English needs perseverance, long patience and determination to reach the goal this is fundamental requirements. people who cannot speak English has less opportunity to go abroad particularly in the open country, and thatâs the reason why I wanted to learn English even basic for this is my only tool to go to other countries if opportunities permit.

From Philippines,

Rene

Re: Two question about "where"

Velimir — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:27:21 GMT

Hello Ant 222,

I wouldn't say that the answer on your question is so clearcut,that's all.What I'm saying is that grammar speed up the process of the acquisition of the language.And it is beyond doubt.One reason I often come across in discussion on this issue is that a native learner may never learn grammar and still you will never have his/her grasp of language,and you can learn grammar as much as you want.Such comparison is ridiculous.Put somebody in the situation to live the language,to make for living surrounded with that language,to ask for a glass of water,or a piece of bread,and I bet he'll learn the hardest chinese dialect in no time,along with the whole trillion symbols of alphabet if needed.But people like to make things complicated when they are not. I've read an interesting sentence in one post on the forum nearby:

"Chomsky suggested that children have a built-in mechanism, which he called the Language Acquisition Device, or LAD, which pre-programs them to develop grammar based on the linguistic input they receive."

Although I don't know the context of this sentence,I understand that children have a knack for languages and all other mankind doesn't.That is,children have one device for automatic learning and when they grow up that LAD gadget break down and they are not able to automatically learn anymore,and they have to fetch grammar if they want to learn a language.
Here goes a few trillions of smiling smilies.That would make learning of language very much similar to "Star Wars" or so.I would say that people enjoy making miracles out of everything.Let me be allowed to advise you not to fall for that kind of reasoning.I mean "Look at me,I'm a miracle,I speak english gorgeuously and I don't have to learn grammar",that kind of reasoning.

As to the learning of a second language,I believe that circumstances in which the learner lives make a difference.First of all,the need to use the language daily,how much you read,how much you listen the language,which depends on his/her place of living,job, his/her affinities i.e personality,lifestyle etc.So,your learning situation and my learning situation are two different situations.More or less different.An immigrant who lives in the USA and is exposed to the english language daily,will need less grammar stuff to learn,and I need more to know about it.It is simple as that.And although,the learning of a language is pretty specific,still it doesn't mean that you don't need grammar at all.I mean you may not need a spade to dig a hole,you can dig it with your fingers,but you'll certainly find a spade helpful.If you know what I mean.Grammar gives the basis i.e the logic for learning.What grammar does is the analysis of the mechanics of a language(i.e cutting into pieces)and then put it together in the way which will make it easier to you to learn.By the way,I remember it from high school that analysis and synthesis are scientific methods in acquiring (any) knowledge.If you give proofs that it is just a useless entertainment for idle men then you'll make a scientific breakthrough,and not only in the field of language.Here goes one smiling smiley.

I think that if an ESL learner avoided confusion caused by different terminology for the same concepts (which is a major problem)and occasionaly manage to find some help when he is baffled(as it is possible from this forum for example) he'll find grammar helpful,and will not shy of it.And there is no reason for that since in essence it is not difficult,so you can read it even if you don't see its real value,and don't worry about your health,it will not put some special strain on your brain.Only when you read it and understand it you will know whether it is worth reading.
I think that Quirk gave neatly arranged structure for a correct acquisition of a language i.e its vocabulary. One can learn the bulk of the english language with the help of his grammar,of course paralelly with learning the vocabulary.Let's say 90% of it,and if somebody want to split hairs he may freely turn linguist,or if he want to learn some expression of Texas shepherds which he didn't understand and it gave him a headache,or solve logical puzzles in your leisure time,he can post a question on some forum.Or something.

Best regards

Velimir

Re: Two question about "where"

Velimir — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 13:27:00 GMT

Hello Ant 222,

I wouldn't say that the answer on your question is so clearcut,that's all.What I'm saying is that by using grammar you speed up the process of the acquisition of the language.And it is beyond doubt.One reason I often come across in discussion on this issue is that a native learner may never learn grammar and still you will never have his/her grasp of language.Such comparison is ridiculous.Put somebody in the situation to live the language,to make for his/her living surrounded with that language,to ask for a glass of water,or a piece of bread,and I bet he'll learn the hardest chinese dialect in no time,along with the whole trillion symbols of alphabet if needed.But people like to make things complicated when they are not. I've read an interesting sentence in one post on the forum nearby:

"Chomsky suggested that children have a built-in mechanism, which he called the Language Acquisition Device, or LAD, which pre-programs them to develop grammar based on the linguistic input they receive."

Although I don't know the context of this sentence,I understand that children have a knack for languages and all other mankind doesn't.That is,children have one device for automatic learning and when they grow up that LAD gadget break down and they are not able to automatically learn anymore,and they have to fetch grammar if they want to learn a language.
Here goes a few trillions of smiling smilies.That would make learning of language very much similar to "Star Wars" or so.I would say that people enjoy making miracles out of everything.Let me be allowed to advise you not to fall for that kind of reasoning.I mean "Look at me,I'm a miracle,I speak english gorgeuously and I don't have to learn grammar",that kind of reasoning.

As to the learning of a second language,I believe that circumstances in which the learner lives make a difference.First of all,the need to use the language daily,how much you read,how much you listen the language,which depends on his/her place of living,job, his/her affinities i.e personality,lifestyle etc.So,your learning situation and my learning situation are two different situations.More or less different.An immigrant who lives in the USA and is exposed to the english language daily,will need less grammar stuff to learn,and I need more to know about it.It is simple as that.And although,the learning of a language is pretty specific,still it doesn't mean that you don't need grammar at all(as an ESL learner)since it gives the basis i.e the logic for learning.What grammar do is analysis of the mechanics of a language(i.e cutting into pieces)and then put it together in the way which will make it easier to you to learn.By the way,I remember it from high school that analysis and synthesis are scientific methods in acquiring (any) knowledge.If you give proofs that it is just a useless entertainment for idle men then you'll make a scientific breakthrough,and not only in the field of language.Here goes one smiling smiley.

I think that if an ESL learner avoided confusion caused by different terminology for the same concepts (which is a major problem)and occasionaly manage to find some help when he is baffled(as it is possible from this forum for example) he'll find grammar helpful,and will not shy of it.And there is no reason for that since in essence it is not difficult,so you can read it even you don't see its real value,and don't worry about your health,it will not put some special strain on your brain.Only when you read it and understand it you will know whether it is worth reading.
I think that Quirk gave neatly arranged structure for a correct acquisition of a language i.e its vocabulary. One can learn the bulk of the english language with the help of his grammar along with learning the vocabulary.Let's say 90% of it,and if somebody want to split hairs he may freely turn linguist,or if he want to learn some expression of Texas shepherds which he didn't understand and it gave him a headache,or solve logical puzzles in your leisure time,he can post a question on some forum.Or something.

Best regards

Velimir

Re: the best way to learn english?

Anonymous — Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:35:55 GMT

Speak without Fear

The biggest problem most people face in learning a new language is their own fear. They worry that they wonât say things correctly or that they will look stupid so they donât talk at all. Donât do this. The fastest way to learn anything is to do it â again and again until you get it right. Like anything, learning English requires practice. Donât let a little fear stop you from getting what you want.

Use all of your Resources

Even if you study English at a language school it doesnât mean you canât learn outside of class. Using as many different sources, methods and tools as possible, will allow you to learn faster. There are many different ways you can improve your English, so donât limit yourself to only one or two. The internet is a fantastic resource for virtually anything, but for the language learner it's perfect.

Surround Yourself with English

The absolute best way to learn English is to surround yourself with it. Take notes in English, put English books around your room, listen to English language radio broadcasts, watch English news, movies and television. Speak English with your friends whenever you can. The more English material that you have around you, the faster you will learn and the more likely it is that you will begin âthinking in English.â .

Listen to Native Speakers as Much as Possible

There are some good English teachers that have had to learn English as a second language before they could teach it. However, there are several reasons why many of the best schools prefer to hire native English speakers. One of the reasons is that native speakers have a natural flow to their speech that students of English should try to imitate. The closer ESL / EFL students can get to this rhythm or flow, the more convincing and comfortable they will become.

Watch English Films and Television

This is not only a fun way to learn but it is also very effective. By watching English films (especially those with English subtitles) you can expand your vocabulary and hear the flow of speech from the actors. If you listen to the news you can also hear different accents.

Listen to English Music

Music can be a very effective method of learning English. In fact, it is often used as a way of improving comprehension. The best way to learn though, is to get the lyrics (words) to the songs you are listening to and try to read them as the artist sings. There are several good internet sites where one can find the words for most songs. This way you can practice your listening and reading at the same time. And if you like to sing, fine.

Study As Often As Possible!

Only by studying things like grammar and vocabulary and doing exercises, can you really improve your knowledge of any language.

Do Exercises and Take Tests

Many people think that exercises and tests aren't much fun. However, by completing exercises and taking tests you can really improve your English. One of the best reasons for doing lots of exercises and tests is that they give you a benchmark to compare your future results with. Often, it is by comparing your score on a test you took yesterday with one you took a month or six months ago that you realize just how much you have learned. If you never test yourself, you will never know how much you are progressing. Start now by doing some of the many exercises and tests on this site, and return in a few days to see what you've learned. Keep doing this and you really will make some progress with English.

Record Yourself

Nobody likes to hear their own voice on tape but like tests, it is good to compare your tapes from time to time. You may be so impressed with the progress you are making that you may not mind the sound of your voice as much.

Listen to English

By this, we mean, speak on the phone or listen to radio broadcasts, audiobooks or CDs in English. This is different than watching the television or films because you canât see the person that is speaking to you. Many learners of English say that speaking on the phone is one of the most difficult things that they do and the only way to improve is to practice.

Finally

Have fun!

Re: Please help me proof it. Thanks

Cheese1987 — Sun, 11 Nov 2007 04:39:46 GMT

Julielai wrote:

Some parts in red for you to fix

Cheese1987 wrote:

Thank you!

Account of the recent language learning experience and insights gained through the course both inside and outside of class

      I have learnt some useful skills in the course in these months.(incomplete sentence) The most impressing (missing three letters) lesson teach me how to write a composition in an (article) appropriate (sp.) style. I do know it is important to choose the appropriate style and tone when writing. I also understand that language style can be classified as formal, neutral and informal before. However, I do not know how I can write in an appropriate style correctly. The skills are not taught when I am in secondary school. After the lesson, I understand choice of vocabulary, sentence structure and grammar, use of transitional words and phrases, use of punctuation and use of abbreaviations and short forms affect the language style. I feel happy that I know how I can write in an appropriate style now. I believe that I can match the type of writing more correctly and therefore, my writing will _not__ _be__ (Insert words here) awkward or unnatural.

      Reading English newspapers also helps me to improve my English. I am not used to reading English newspaper before. But I am required to buy South China Morning Post from the courses. From then on I try to make reading South China Morning Post to be my daily routine. I find that it is an effective way to learn more vocabularies. It also helps me to broaden my horizon(Review your use of not only but also) Now I read South China Morning Post form Yahoo. So I can read South China Morning Post everyday. I deeply believe that South China Morning Post is worth reading.

Personal changed feelings/opinions/attitude towards English language learning

    I am convinced that English language learning are stressful and frustrating before. I feel nervous when everyone is focus on me and when teacher is listening carefully. I believe this feeling comes from my self- doubt. I think classmates are step ahead of me. I also cannot correctly pronounce some sounds and sets of sound. To be frank, I have thought that English is no more important because I am in Chinese Language and Literature Programme. I no need to improve my English anymore.

However, my friends told me that mastery of the English language is important. Hong Kong being a service - oriented economy, the advantage of having a competent English-speaking work force has become all the more improtant. I know that being a Chinese Language and Literature student is only an excuse to avoid learning English (You shouldn't think like that! Nothing wrong with being a Chinese major.). This thought only badly affects my interest and progress of learning English. I do know that if I lose the interest of learning English, my English cannot improve anymore. I need to find some ways to prevent feeling so embarrassed.

     There are ways for me to prevent feeling so embarrassed. I think the most practical way is to improve English. I should study English continuously. When I find some words that I cannot pronouce, I will check the electronic dictionary immediately. I will also try to speak English with my friends. I believe I can speak English fluently if I often do that. My friends can also kindly point out my grammatical mistakes. They will not laugh at my absurd mistakes. Therefore, I will not feel embarrassed anymore.

Personal Learning Plan

Long term goals:

a)         To get a C grade in Use of English in Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination

b)        To get a band score of 7 in IELTS

Short term goals:

a)         To finish all the exercises in Advanced Grammar in Use.

b)        To keep reading South China Moring Post and Hong Kong Standard

c)        To write compositions

Materials to use:

a)         Advanced Grammar in Use Exercise book

b)        South China Morning Post

c)        Hong Kong Standard

Activities to engage in:

a)         To join some workshops held by ITC

b)        To exchange oversea in Summer

How often:

a)         Doing 3 exercises everyday

b)        Reading Newspapers everyday (Look up the difference between "every day" and everyday)

c)        Writing a composition every 2 weeks

Mode of learning:

a)         Keep doing exercise and composition

b)        Keep reading newspapers

Mode of assessment:

a)         To sit for Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination.

b)        To sit for IELTS.

Re: Please help me proof it. Thanks

julielai — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:06:53 GMT

Some parts in red for you to fix

Cheese1987 wrote:

Account of the recent language learning experience and insights gained through the course both inside and outside of class

     Some useful skill I have learnt in the course in these months.(incomplete sentence) The most impress_ _ _ (missing three letters) ~~me is the~~ lesson teaching me how to write a composition in a (article) approicate (sp.) style. I do know it is important to choose the appropriate ~~and~~ tone when writing. I also understand that language style can be classified as formal, Neutral and Informal before. However, I do not know how I can write in an approriate style correctly. The skills are not taught when I am in secondary school. After the lesson, I understand choice of vocabulary, sentence structure and grammar, use of transitional words and phrases, use of punctuation and use of abbreaviations and short forms ~~are a critical issue~~ affect~~ing~~ the language style. I feel happy that I know how I can write in an approiate style now. I believe that I can match the type of writing more correctly and therefore, my writing will ~~be avoided to regard as~~ ___ ___ (Insert words here) awkward or unnatural.

      Reading English newspapers also helps me to improve my English. I am not used to reading English newspaper before. But I am required to buy South China Morning Post throught the courses. From then on I try to make reading South China Morning Post to be my daily routine. ~~I find that not only vocabularies I can learnt more , but also the horizon I can borden.~~ (Review your use of not only but also) Now ~~when the days I cannot received Newspaper from the lesson,~~ I read South China Morning Post form Yahoo. So I can read South China Morning Post everyday. I deeply believe that South China Morning Post is worth reading.

Personal changed feelings/opinions/attitude towards English language learning

    I am convinced that English language learning are stressful and frustrating before. I feel nervous when everyone is focus on me and when teacher is listening carefully. I believe this feeling comes from my self- doubt. I think classmates are step ahead of me. I also cannot correctly pronounce some sounds and sets of sound. To be frank, I have thought that English is no more important because I am in Chinese Language and Literature Programme. I no need to improve my English anymore.

However, my friends told me that mastery of the English language is indispensible. Hong Kong being a service - oriented economy, the advantage of having a competent English-speaking work force has become all the more improtant. I know that being a Chinese Language and Literature student is only an excuse to avoid learning English (You shouldn't think like that! Nothing wrong with being a Chinese major.). This thought only badly affect my interest and progress of learning English. I do know that if I lost the interest of learning English, my English cannot improve anymore. I need to find some ways to prevent feeling so fear and embarrassed.

     There are ways for me to prevent feeling so embarrassment. I think the most basical way is to improve English. I should study English continuously. When I find some words that I cannot ~~ensure to correctly~~ pronouce, I will check the electronic dictionary immediately. I will also try to speak English with my friends. I believe I can speak English fluently if I often do that. My friends can also kindly point out my grammatical mistakes. They will not laugh at my absurd mistakes. Therefore, I will not feel embarrassed anymore.

Personal Learning Plan

Long term goals:

a)         To get a C grade in Use of English in Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination

b)        To get a band score of 7 ~~marks~~ in IELTS

Short term goals:

a)         To finish all the exercises in Advanced Grammar in Use.

b)        To keep reading South China Moring Post and standard

c)        To write compositions

Materials to use:

a)         Advanced Grammar in Use Exercise book

b)        South China Morning Post

c)        Hong Kong Standard

Activities to engage in:

a)         To join some workshops held by ITC

b)        To exchange in Summer

How often:

a)         Doing 3 exercises everyday

b)        Reading Newspapers every day (Look up the difference between "every day" and everyday)

c)        Writing a composition every 2 weeks

Mode of learning:

a)         Keep doing exercise and composition

b)        Keep reading Newspapers

Mode of assessment:

a)         To sit for Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination.

b)        To sit for IELTS.

Please help me proof it. Thanks

Cheese1987 — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:41:16 GMT

Please help me proof it. Thanks!

Account of the recent language learning experience and insights gained through the course both inside and outside of class

Some useful skill I have learnt in the course in these months. The most impress me is the lesson teaching me the skills to write a composition in a approicate style. I do know it is important to choose the appropriate and tone when writing. I also understand that language style can be classified as formal, Neutral and Informal before. However, I do not know how I can write in an approriate style correctly. The skills are not taught when I am in secondary school. After the lesson, I understand choice of vocabulary, sentence structure and grammar, use of transitional words and phrases, use of punctuation and use of abbreaviations and short forms are a critical issue affecting the language style. I feel happy that I know how I can write in an approiate style now. I believe that I can match the type of writing more correctly and therefore, my writing will be avoided to regard as awkward or unnatural.

Reading English newspapers also helps me to improve my English. I am not used to reading English newspaper before. But I am required to buy South China Morning Post throught the courses. From then on I try to make reading South China Morning Post to be my daily routine. I find that not only vocabularies I can learnt more , but also the horizon I can borden. Now when the days I cannot received Newspaper from the lesson, I read South China Morning Post form Yahoo. So I can read South China Morning Post everyday. I deeply believe that South China Morning Post is worth reading.

Personal changed feelings/opinions/attitude towards English language learning

I am convinced that English language learning are stressful and frustrating before. I feel nervous when everyone is focus on me and when teacher is listening carefully. I believe this feeling comes from my self- doubt. I think classmates are step ahead of me. I also cannot correctly pronounce some sounds and sets of sound. To be frank, I have thought that English is no more important because I am in Chinese Language and Literature Programme. I no need to improve my English anymore.

However, my friends told me that mastery of the English language is indispensible. Hong Kong being a service - oriented economy, the advantage of having a competent English work force has become all the more improtant. I know that being a Chinese Language and Literature student is only an excuse to avoid learning English. This thought only badly affect my interest and progress of learning English. I do know that if I lost the interest of learning English, my English cannot improve anymore. I need to find some ways to prevent feeling so fear and embarrassed.

There are ways for me to prevent feeling so embarrassment. I think the most basical way is to improve English. I should study English continuously. When I find some words that I cannot ensure to correctly pronouce, I will check the electronic dictionary immediately. I will also try to speak English with my friends. I believe I can speak English fluently if I often do that. My friends can also kindly point out my grammatical mistakes. They will not laugh at my absurd mistakes. Therefore, I will not feel embarrassed anymore.

Personal Learning Plan

Long term goals:

a) To get a C grade in Use of English in Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination

b) To get 7 marks in IELTS

Short term goals:

a) To finish all the exercises in Advanced Grammar in Use.

b) To keep reading South China Moring Post and standard

c) To write compositions

Materials to use:

a) Advanced Grammar in Use Exercise book

b) South China Morning Post

c) Hong Kong Standard

Activities to engage in:

a) To join some workshops held by ITC

b) To exchange in Summer

How often:

a) Doing 3 exercises everyday

b) Reading Newspapers everyday

c) Writing a composition every 2 weeks

Mode of learning:

a) Keep doing exercise and composition

b) Keep reading Newspaper

Mode of assessment:

a) To sit for Hong Kong Advanced Level Examination.

b) To sit for IELTS.

Re: Why don't students "use" what they know?

Mister Micawber — Fri, 26 Oct 2007 00:59:15 GMT

Ah! Another acronym. Yes, of course, MFP has to be addressed, and adult students do seem to need to know the theory, where children absolutely do not-- but it can be done, and more efficaciously, in the process of communicating. Slip it in when they aren't looking. It is getting involved in 'free conversation' that most helps your student acquire the language.

Granted, my 'free conversation' is not very free-- I rely on a lot of conversation-stimulating materials (videos, newspaper articles, cartoons, picture books, quizzes, puzzles, lyrics, gossip, etc) to ensure that the student is getting vocabulary and items of interest beyond the state of the weather and the student's weekend activities. Input, input, input-- if the student is getting enough of it, at a reasonably comprehensible level-- s/he will eventually be able to speak English well.

Of course, students vary. Most of my Japanese students can parse circles around me but cannot pronounce their way out of a paper bag. Yours may have other idiosyncrasies.

Are we talking about the same points?