Re: Pronunciation differences

raindoctor — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 18:00:01 GMT

r after any vowel has a special place in english. oor usually end up as ʊɚ, ɔɚ, oʊɚ poor: pʊɚ moore: mʊ ɚ , mɔ ɚ , moʊ ɚ floor: fl ɔ ɚ , floʊ ɚ door: d ɔ ɚ d oʊ ɚ oo before any but r: boom: bum doom: dum hood: h ʊd good: gʊd wood: wʊd hook: hʊk food: fud proof: pruf school: skuo (the last o shud be transcribed as a satellite, since vocalized l shud be there). Now, you can notice the pattern.

Re: Phonetic differences between English and Spanish

anonymous — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:23:45 GMT

The vowel in the English "family" is formed with the back of the tongue very high in the mouth (look in a mirror). The Spanish "a" is like the English in "Say 'AHHHH.'" The location of the tongue in the Spanish "a" is closer to the position of the English "u." That is probably why you think they sound the same.

Re: English and spanish phonetic sounds with their phonetic differences

anonymous — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:56:50 GMT

well the English D and T sound like a Spanish R (not double R but just R) - the Spanish J sounds like a English H - the Spanish L and English L don't sound alike (they are different sounds), and the same happened with the Spanish and English T (they are different sounds) - In English when one pronounce the letter "P" one relieses a puff of air, in Spanish you don't do that (that's what makes the Spanish and English T different too, by the way) - the English N and M's sounds are way longer than the Spanish ones - the Spanish Y and Spanish LL (or, double L) sound alike, and their sound is that of a English "J", unlike most people think, is the Spanish Y and double LL are not pronounce like an...

Re: Has anyone tried out AJ.Hoge"s course-EFFORTLESS ENGLISH.If so,How was it?

elena_osullivan — Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:03:17 GMT

AJ Hoge's "effortless english" is a waste of money. I made the mistake of buying it for a friend who doesn't speak much English and she doesn't even use it. I don't blame her because it takes a lot of effort to learn with it, and there are much, much better materials available on the internet for free. My friend watched some of his videos wherein he sells his MP3's and she thought she found the magic answer thanks to AJ. He's a good salesman but a very mediocre teacher.

Re: The pronunciation of MERLE

raindoctor — Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:42:53 GMT

What pakis do or any L2 learners to: L2-ize foreign words, the way L1 english speakers anglicize foreign words. Urdu, Hindi speakers may pronounce merle as mɛ rlɛ. Look at the syllables: mɛ and rlɛ. Observe two things here: (1) CV and CCV syllables; (2) -rl- cluster in the onset. -rl- cluster in the onset is not permitted in english. Second, vowel + r in english plays very important role. Third, cluster of sonorants need a special treatment in english: splitting em into different syllables. mer + le > mer + uh l > mur + ul > mɚ ə l or mɚ oʊ Look at some vowel + r combinations: ar > ɛɚ (this is true only when some consonant doesn't follow r. Contrast carbon, mars, art, etc) er, ir, ur > ɚ or > ɔɚ eer >...

Re: Where do I put the stress?

raindoctor — Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:57:10 GMT

Dipsik, Check M-W, Jones and Wells dictionaries, see whether 'seg' in segment does have a reduced vowel. I am not a fan of rule; however, I would like to look for an explanation that accounts many disparate pronunciation phenemona. Posterity, hostility, costectomy, nostolgia, cosmetic, etc--these contradict your hypothesis that in unstrssed syllables, vowels are reduced/neutral. For more, check this book Pronouncing english: a stress-based approach by Teschner.

Re: Pronunciation

raindoctor — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 18:57:23 GMT

What's your point? I made an implicit point: it is not cognitively productive to remember pronounciation for every word. What learners should be taught: a set of heuristics to find possible pronunciations for a word. Mastery of phonetics (or how to produce bilabial fricative, etc) does not help much. English phonology helps. Since it is a 3-syllable word, it can have two variations: stress-unstressed-stressed; unstressed-stressed-unstressed. When a syllable gets stressed, it usually attracts consonants to the onset as well as the coda; it also allows for consonant clustering (wis-'con-sin vs. wi-'scon-sin). Suffixes also give a clue on where stress falls (for instance, one can predict where primary stress falls in...

Re: Pronunciation

raindoctor — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 20:26:13 GMT

It is a three syllable word, and there is a vowel cluster. Therefore, the middle syllable get unstressed. The vowel cluster -eu- is not an english one; anglicizing it leads to /u/, cf. deuce, Neuce, etc 'bɛt əl ˌdʒus, /t/ is a tapped t

Re: KK and phonics?

raindoctor — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 17:24:02 GMT

In phonics, people are brought to the attention that a set of words have the same vowel quality. In KK, this vowel quality is transcribed using IPA. If I am teaching kids, I dont want to burden them with IPA. Phonics consists of set of heuristics or generalizations, which are not true always. But they help you localize what the possible sounds are when they encounter a new word. We know how to pronounce astronomy: ə ˈstrɑn əmi. How to pronounce a word aptronomy. Kids usually say ə' ptrɑn əmi. This is where phonics fails us. English phonology helps: s r cluster is permitted in English; but not ptr. So, we need to split aptronomy into ap-tron-o-mi. The possible pronounciation is: æp ˈtrɑn ə mi

Re: Vowels

riturj — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 03:49:45 GMT

According to WIKIANSWERS , it is: Any word with a final W, such as cow or few or tomorrow , uses the w as a vowel. I have never heard that "Cow" is vowel. The words which contain the pronunciation of vowel can be counted as Vowel whether they are "AEIOU" are or not.

Re: "a hydrodynamic" vs "an hydrodynamic"

anonymous — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:48:16 GMT

Using “a” and “an” Before Words Raphael asks: When should I use “a” and when should I use “an” before the different words? For example, should I say “a hour” or “an hour?” I stumble over this everytime and dont’t know if I’m getting it right, as I’m not speaking and writing English natively. The Rule The rule states that “a” should be used before words that begin with consonants (e.g., b, c ,d) while “an” should be used before words that begin with vowels (e.g., a,e,i). Notice, however, that the usage is determined by the pronunciation and not by the spelling, as many people wrongly assume. You should say, therefore, “an hour” (because hour begins with a vowel sound) and “a history” (because history begins with a consonant...

Re: How to pronounce Pacino, Scorsese and Sean

tanit — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 21:13:16 GMT

I won't argue with you, of course you're right, you're a native Italian! You can argue! After all, Italian has many variants and I can speak only for mine. After doing some search on the internet, I've found this dictionary where you can listen to the pronunciation of ro s a and to that of s ole (just type one word in the box, click on the result and press the red arrow next to the phonetic trancription of the word in the pop-up). I've also managed to find an easy list of rules to help you decide whether s should pronounced /s/ or /z/. This allows for an explanation of the pronunciation of the three s's in Scorsese : The first one is pronounced /s/ because it's at the beginning of the word (also,...

Re: the pronunciation of the word "the"

anonymous — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 16:22:41 GMT

If you look in a dictionary: the 1 play_w2("T0146800") ( before a vowel; before a consonant ) Or, "thee" before a vowel and "thuh" before a consonant. It's not a rule we learn in school, but it's something we seem to "absorb". The reason for the different pronunciation is so that the language flows more smoothly. French does that a lot! For example, les tables (don't hear the "s"), but les enfants (you hear the "s" as a "z" sound to make it not hiccup!)...

Re: Double consonants f, l, k, s, z in verb's infinitive

alpheccastars — Sat, 16 May 2009 02:09:19 GMT

It is just convention. English spelling is not 100% consistent or regular. There have been many attempts at spelling reform, but none so far has gained any traction. There is no "academy" for English, as there can be for other languages. The convention may be based on the origins of the words in Latin, Greek, Germanic, or others such as Old French. That being said, though, I tried to generalize a phonetic rule that fits. S and Z are voiced/unvoiced equivalents, and L, F, S, Z are all continuants. M, N are continuants, but they are also nasals. ck cannot be considered a doubling, it is a digraph, an alternate spelling of the K sound. There are no verbs (at least common ones) ending in J or V. When a verb ends in W, I...

Re: "O"s that use the "wuh" sound like one does...?

anonymous — Wed, 13 May 2009 04:06:05 GMT

From Dictionary.com Word History : Why do we pronounce one (wŭn) and once (wŭns) while other words derived from one, like only, alone, and atone, are pronounced with a long o? Over time, stressed vowels commonly become diphthongs, as when Latin bona became buona in Italian and buena in Spanish. A similar diphthongization of one and once began in the late Middle Ages in the west of England and in Wales and is first recorded around 1400. The vowel sound underwent a series of changes, such that the word's pronunciation went from (ōn) to (ōōōn), with two syllables, to (wōn) to (wōōn) to (wŏŏn) and finally to (wŭn). In southwest England, this diphthongization happened to other words beginning with the long o sound, such as oats,...

Post

ecossais — Fri, 08 May 2009 21:55:30 GMT

Hi! Thank you for this interesting discussion and for your answer.Your opinion is important for me. First of all, my problem concerns teaching English as a second language. It's very bad that teachers instructing pupils how to pronounce /ʌ/ usually say that you should pronounce /o/ but not rounding your lips But in fact, the /ʌ/ is closer to /a/ in most dialects, not to /o/. Pronunciation of /dæm/ or /θɔːt/ varies in different ways in different regions, but /ʌ/ is not so vague. This is usually /a/ or /ɐ/ in RP, GenAm, AU, NZ (though, it differs from /æ/, /ɑ:/, /ɑ/, /ɒ/ and there's not any merge). You can find in the net the phonetic maps and see the contemporary position of the vowel. During last century linguists have changed...

Re: Vowel [ʌ] in modern English

ecossais — Thu, 07 May 2009 22:56:46 GMT

The vowel must always be pronounced the same, since it's an IPA symbol that describe a sound. IPA symbols don't change, they are defined that way, and they remain so, so that we can describe some sounds. Hmm... But don't you think this is a little bit eh...old-fashioned? Let's see. In older dictionaries (and in many books in linguistic, too) there weren't made the differences between /ɔ/ and /ɔ:/, /ə/ and /ə:/. But nowadays if you, using broad transcription, describe /ɜ:/ and /ɒ/ as /ə:/ and /ɔ/ your work would seem outdated. I think that not we must adjust to a defined set of IPA symbols but we use it to write phonemes(and phones) of our language properly so we can change one IPA symbol to another, if this set of...

Re: Vowel [ʌ] in modern English

kooyeen — Thu, 07 May 2009 19:48:22 GMT

Hi (and welcome to Englishforums Smile), As I know, in modern English the vowel is no more pronounced as... ouch! The vowel must always be pronounced the same, since it's an IPA symbol that describe a sound. IPA symbols don't change, they are defined that way, and they remain so, so that we can describe some sounds. What happens is that dictionaries use a set of symbols even if they don't represent the real pronunciation, so you have a kind of "phonemic transcription", and not real "phonetic transcriptions". For example, from a dictionary you can understand that "bug" and "sub" have the same vowel, or that "teacher" and "better" rhyme, but it doesn't tell...

Re: What is a syllable?

danielrams07 — Sun, 05 Apr 2009 16:15:41 GMT

syllable Segment of speech usually consisting of a vowel with or without accompanying consonant sounds (e.g., a , I , out , too , cap , snap , check ). A syllabic consonant, like the final n sound in button and widen , also constitutes a syllable. Closed (checked) syllables end in a consonant, open (free) syllables in a vowel. Syllables play an important role in the study of speech and in phonetics and phonology . girl have 1 go have 1 rain 2 famous 2 hour 1 double 2 prison 2 A syllable is a basic unit of written and spoken language. It is a unit consisting of uninterrupted sound that can be used to make up words. For example, the word hotel has two syllables: ho and tel . These will be marked here as in ho/tel . Counting Syllables ...

Re: Two dialects for me?

forbes — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 09:13:31 GMT

There is, I think, a difference between pronunciation and accent, though I am not quite sure what it is. Perhaps it is a question of degree. It is perfectly possible to pronounce words correctly but with different accents. Different accents may of course involve different articulations of vowels and consonants, but they also involve other aspects like pitch and intonation. Unless learned at a young age by immersion, most people have at least a trace of a foreign accent when they speak a foreign language.

Help! Do American & Brit English differ in the final vowel sound in CARRIED & FAMILIES?

anonymous — Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:53:44 GMT

Is it true that in American English, the final vowel sound in CARRIED, VARIED, SOCIETIES and FAMILIES rhymes with that in FEET whilst in British, it rhymes with that in FIT? My examples above are verbs and nouns that end with an EE sound in their regular form: CARRY, VARY, SOCIETY, FAMILY I'm referring to American English as GaE (General American English) and to British English as RP (Received Pronunciation). thanks

Re: "a" or "an" before a consonant acronym

anonymous — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:00:16 GMT

I agree. It actually really vexes me when people use "a" in front of an acronym. Even though the previous post has been up for quite some time, maybe someone will run across this and find it helpful. Here is my reasoning: So, yes, we all know the English language is supposed to be one of the most grammatically difficult languages around. But when you think about the rules, almost all of them have some basis in logic. The reason that the English language provides two indefinite articles (both "a" and "an") is based in phonetics. It is difficult to pronounce "a" in front of any word beginning in a vowel. For example, saying "a apple" or "a egg" requires a lot more gutteral...

Re: Leave vs. Live

avangi — Fri, 02 Jan 2009 19:20:45 GMT

Hi, amylopez, Thanks for joining us. Welcome to English Forums! As far as I know, there's no vowel sound in Spanish resembling our "short i." So your pronunciation of "leave" is probably the one that's correct (like the Spanish "i" in Licha ). Do you have the same problem with "heat" and "hit"? "Seat" and "sit"? "Live" is not a good one to practice on, since it has two very different pronunciations. The verb, "I live in the city," has the short "i," like "hit." The adjective, "We had a live band at the party," has what we call a "long i," in which the letter says it's own name. It has the vowel...

Re: Ordinarily, temporarily, momentarily

paul — Thu, 18 Dec 2008 19:51:19 GMT

I am somewhat confused about the proper British pronunciation of words like "ordinarily", "temporarily", and "momentarily". As I understand it, ... American pronunciation and stress the "a" in these words. What is common and what is considered correct British? Claus I do not think either the Brits or those in the U.S. omit any vowel sound in these words completely. In other words, there are no silent syllables in these words.Theoretically, every syllable in a word is uttered with a 'stress level' different from that of the other syllables in the same word. But for practical considerations, we could say, a word with four syllables or more probably has a syllable with a primary stress and...

Re: Try Saying the Alphabet...

peter groves — Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:23:04 GMT

Native speakers of English don't, unless dictating to children. In ... or "handbag" (which in rapid speech is indistinguishable from "ham-bag"). I'm English and have just a vestige of a "d" in handsome and a subdued but audible one in sandwich, but a full one in handbag (hand-bag). If you utter a fully released /d/ in "handbag" (hand-bag) you're using a spelling pronunciation, which is normally a result of the word in question going out of daily use. I'm English too, but I live in Australia and while my students don't say "cup-board" because they use the word on a daily basis, they do say "waist-coat", "boat-swain", "grind-stone" and...

Re: IPA and the phonetic alphabet [was: Re: "Yuuse" means /yuus/, yaw? ...pitch roll.]

john varela — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 16:47:16 GMT

With the stress on the second vowel of 'romeo', as I was taught it. The words themselves are chosen to be readily distinguishable in poor hearing conditions, and the ordained stress patterns are designed to aid this distinction. If I'm not mistaken, the change from WW2's Able, Baker, Charlie to Alfa, Bravo, Cocoa (later reverted to Charlie) was for better understanding by non-native-English speakers in NATO. John Varela Trade NEW lamps for OLD for email.

Re: WHEN IS "w" A VOWEL

missmandy — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:02:28 GMT

This debate really seems to be about two different things, spelling and pronunciation. The letter w (and y) is often used with other vowels (and sometimes alone as well) in spelling to reperesent a vowel sound . In the words hi and by , the letter i and the letter y are representing the same sound. To add to the confusion, English has many diphthongs, or two-sound vowels. Two-sound vowels often begin or end in a sound very similar to a w sound or y sound. The easiest to here are oy (boy) and ow (cow), which can also be spelled oi (coin) and ou (house). So, it is very clear, that in spelling , w and y are like vowels. Our educators have found it much easier to just tell our kids that those letters are vowels because they are so often part...

Re: Compounds with "non": hyphen or no hyphen?

anonymous — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:48:28 GMT

I'm afraid that in British English the rule *is* different. We do indeed tend to use hyphens after the prefix "non-" (which avoids the possibility of mispronouncing words such as "nonnative" ). As regards other prefixes, "pre-" and "co-" still sometimes take a hyphen (particularly where the second part of the word starts with a vowel and could lead to an erroneous pronunciation, e.g. pre-empt, co-opted). According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "micro-organism" is also the preferred form, for similar reasons.

Re: An 80% decrease ~ a 80% decrease

sprocket — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:31:04 GMT

I stumbled upon the latter use recently, and it got me thinking. There seems to be some exceptions to the simple rule that I still use when deciding on "a" or "an"... Don't make it too complicated! It goes almost entirely by the results when spoken. "an 80" could just as easily be written "an eighty". The mute h is fairly rare nowadays, both spoken and written, and "an hotel" would usually be considered "lah-di-dah", affectedly upper-class. "Honour" in UK English stuill has the silent H, so you would say "It's an (h)onour to be a hostess in a hotel". "a/an" NEVER takes its form from ANY word but the one after it. Honour, honesty, heir, hour-...

Re: SAMPA (was: would of [was hello])

philip baker — Sat, 18 Feb 2006 01:04:17 GMT

Yes, but John Hall implied that he heard this in ... (using SAMPA notation) but I've never noticed this. (SAMPA: http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/english.htm) SAMPA is itself quite confusing since it offers two different symbols (V and U) for vowels which are indistinguishable to me in the examples given (cut & put). There appears also to be no representation of the diphthong used in "weight". If SAMPA is confusing it is because the English vowel system is complex and there are wide variations between accents. There is another factor: SAMPA is a transliteration of the International Phonetic Association's alphabet (IPA) into ASCII. English speakers are unused to IPA because it is rarely used in pronouncing...

Re: Thuh only thing I hate.

nick wagg — Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:50:41 GMT

The OP was referring to its pronunciation before a vowel sound. Oh. The entrance is on the second floor (the / thee) ? A Mexican might use "thee" but an Englishman never would. Mind you, a Yorkshireman might use "t" and someone from The Potteries could well use "th". Only a Mexican would use "thee". English is de

How to overcome tongue-tied pronunciation?

Sat, 28 Jan 2006 02:03:50 GMT

Hi, I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any formal ESL training or certification, but I do tutor some foreign students in English - mainly written English. I've been approached by a Russian student who wants to improve her pronunciation, intonation and accent. She has trouble getting her tongue around English vowels. This clearly is beyond my capabilities. But I'm wondering what kind of tutor she needs. This seems to me to require working with a linguistic therapist in a language laboratory. Am I write in thinking that even someone with formal ESL certification would not necessarily have the skills needed to help her? Where would she look for this kind of tutoring? It doesn't seem to be available at...

Re: Origin & earliest usage of "Plonker" (eg. "Rodney you Plonker")

Mon, 05 Sep 2005 21:37:16 GMT

I must be slow this morning, but I got there in the end. You are not the only one, even I did not get it straight away. As John seems to have noticed, in day to day life I am John Lawler. But when I first started posting to this group and sci.lang, I discovered that there was another John Lawler already here. After some experimentation, I settled on the Irish form of my name as a nom-de-clavier. It would be equally applicable to the other John but I got it first. I was actually born in London but my parents were both born in Ireland. Explaining the pronunciation of my surname would take quite a while. If you are interested, scan this group and sci.lang for it. One or the other contains an explanation with contributions from people whose...

Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation

phil c. — Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:21:16 GMT

As someone living in Northern Ireland, the most accurate comment ... over the centuries by migrants from England, Scotland, and Wales. However, there are identifiable features which are common in speech across Northern Ireland. Those of us with some familiarity with ... hasn't had the great shift in pronunciation of vowels that has taken place particualrly in south-eastern English since Elizabethan times. It just sounds to me like something from a publicity handout by the Belfast Tourist Board but perhaps I'm cynical. Phil C.

Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation

matthew huntbach — Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:15:20 GMT

I read somewhere that if you want to hear Shakespeare's ... should see a performance by a Northern Irish/Belfast theatre company. As someone living in Northern Ireland, the most accurate comment I can make on the correctness of this assertion is ... Different accents and varieties of English have been brought here over the centuries by migrants from England, Scotland, and Wales. However, there are identifiable features which are common in speech across Northern Ireland. Those of us with some familiarity with accents don't find it to detect from their speech when someone comes from the province. I guess what was really meant is that Northern Irish speech has kept some features of English which have changed in English as spoken in...

Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation

matthew huntbach — Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:08:06 GMT

Indeed. When English was first written, it was spelt phonetically. ... English represents how English was spoken in the 16th century. It's more complicated than that. Spelling standardised (thanks to printing) shortly *after* Shakespeare's works were published (say about the middle ... Middle English, which was *before* the Great Vowel Shift. The pronunciation of some words has changed to match the spelling... If the spelling of Shakespeare's day represented Middle English, then it had already standardised. Not completely, perhaps, but enough so that there was no longer a completely phonetical representation. Matthew Huntbach

Re: Shakespeare's pronunciation

john briggs — Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:29:57 GMT

I've never heard Shakespeare being performed with original pronunciation, so ... and spelling was much closer then than it is now. Indeed. When English was first written, it was spelt phonetically. However, by Shakepeare's time "correct" spellings were just getting established. So the spelling used in English represents how English was spoken in the 16th century. It's more complicated than that. Spelling standardised (thanks to printing) shortly *after* Shakespeare's works were published (say about the middle of the seventeenth century). Most vowel sounds have changed again since Shakespeare's day, but the spelling of Shakespeare's day reflected that of Middle English, which was *before* the Great Vowel...

Re: pronounciation before meaning

cybercypher — Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:36:23 GMT

Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: One can always record one's own speech and compare it with a native speaker's rendition. On the contrary, I think one can improve a lot if others listen to him/her attentively and make him/her notice ... change the sound, even better if they can explain where their tongue exactly is when they utter a certain sound. Sure, but that's not terribly practical in most EFL classes. I do spend a bit of time on trying to teach my Taiwanese students that they have to close their lips to pronounce an (m), but most of them just pronounce words like "time" as (tain) instead of (taim). That's why I I don't think it's just an individual problem, as I noticed there are common issues for...

Re: Los Angeles

jim heckman — Sat, 02 Oct 2004 06:29:47 GMT

Can somebody tell me the correct pronunciation of "Los Angeles" ... short a is the correct one. (or are both used?) Short a is correct, and the final e is usually short as in "less" in Californian English. But the OP should note that what is meant here by "short a" is the vowel of , which no speaker of Californian English would think of as the same vowel as in Spanish . Nobody will complain if the final e is produced as in Mexican Spanish like "lace", though. They might not complain, but they'll think you sound very strange if you mix together English and Spanish pronunciations like that in a single name. Jim Heckman

Re: ReadSay (was Re: Los Angeles)

mark barratt — Fri, 01 Oct 2004 13:29:48 GMT

He already said that the current version supports mid-western=20 American (presumably Caught=3DCot), but that you can edit the=20 pronunciation table on which it is based. This, of course, would be=20 a major undertaking - particularly if you wanted British English,=20 with all the extra vowels - since the definition of almost every=20 word would have to be edited. A more interesting question, to my mind, is: how does the system=20 respond to native speakers? The description of the device leads me to suspect that it might say=20 that native speakers are mispronouncing things - particularly in=20 connected speech, where assimilation is a major factor. =20 Regards, Mark Barratt

Re: Vowels of American English

mxsmanic — Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:29:50 GMT

Which do you think is better to learn? The one that doesn't require Flash. Other than that, it's up to you. There is no rigid number for the vowels in American English or any other dialect of any language. It all depends on where you draw the line. Instead of learning a fixed set of vowels by rote, look at all the vowels defined for the pronunciation you wish to adopt and then look at their relative importance. Vowels are important when they appear in many minimal pairs or sets; they are less important when they appear in few minimal pairs or sets; and they are unimportant if they don't appear in any minimal pairs or sets (unless you want to eliminate an accent). Contrasts between /i/ and /I/ are extremely important in...

Vowels of American English

ariel alonzo medina v?zquez — Mon, 06 Sep 2004 17:14:59 GMT

Hi friends, In this link: http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/about.html you will see there are 15 vowels in American English. In this link: http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/IPA/SSAE.html you will see there are 12 vowels in Standard American English. Which do you think is better to learn? Thanks for your comments. Ariel

Re: Sank/sunk, shrank/shrunk: a new view

jonathan jordan — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:09:00 GMT

Not exactly RP, but I say /'kA.v@ntSrI/ ("cot" vowel). You actually have *phonemic*, not just phonetic, /S/ here? Someone just asked about = /tSrai/ in misc.education.language.english; I thought they were probably just hearing some audible friction in the post-alveolar/pre-palatal region as a natural consequence of allophonically aspirated /t/ followed by alveolar/retroflex approximant /r/. Well, the affricate /tS/ (or /c^/ for those who prefer that notation) and no /t/ or /S/, but yes, that's how I perceive it. Similarly /tSraI/ "try", /dZraI/ "dry", /StSrit/ "street". I can use real /tr/ and /dr/ in some names of non-English origin - it seems a bit odd to me to use my English...

Re: Sank/sunk, shrank/shrunk: a new view

jim heckman — Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:35:25 GMT

What's the modern RP way of saying "Coventry"? I ... but if I did, "Cuvventry" is what I would say. Not exactly RP, but I say /'kA.v@ntSrI/ ("cot" vowel). You actually have *phonemic*, not just phonetic, /S/ here? Someone just asked about = /tSrai/ in misc.education.language.english; I thought they were probably just hearing some audible friction in the post-alveolar/pre-palatal region as a natural consequence of allophonically aspirated /t/ followed by alveolar/retroflex approximant /r/. Jim Heckman

Re: Sank/sunk, shrank/shrunk: a new view

jonathan jordan — Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:57:45 GMT

Then there's the very short one round Brum way, which ... to the old-style RP way of saying "Coventry" as "Cuvventry". What's the modern RP way of saying "Coventry"? I don't havemuch call to use the word (and far I am from RP), but if I did,"Cuvventry" is what I would say. Not exactly RP, but I say /'kA.v@ntSrI/ ("cot" vowel). I'm not convinced that the wigh that Brummies sigh it has anything to do with the old-fashioned RP pronunciation. There are plenty of examples of in English being /Vv/. Jonathan

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'

mxsmanic — Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:30:38 GMT

Agreed, if such coursebooks claim to be representing American pronunciation. They are incorrect even when representing RP. Apparently length is indeed an inherent part of vowel phonemes in several important British dialects, where /i/ ~ (i:) is in fact longer than /I/ ~ (I). There may be some dialect somewhere that makes phonemic distinctions based on length, but RP does not, nor does GAE. There are other errors in transcriptions as well, such as the persistent tendency to note /E/ as /e/, which is very confusing to people who actually know the IPA (these are two entirely different vowels), and the tendency to note /I/ as /i/ and /i/ as /i:/, which is also incorrect and confusing. Don't English speakers ever study any other languages...

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'

jim heckman — Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:56:39 GMT

On 11-Aug-2004, Mxsmanic (Email Removed) wrote in message (Email Removed): It is not true for English in Los Angeles, where ... same phonetic length; the difference is almost entirely in quality. I agree; I've noticed the same thing in American English, which makes the incorrect phonetic transcriptions used in so many English coursebooks even more misleading. Agreed, if such coursebooks claim to be representing American pronunciation. Apparently length is indeed an inherent part of vowel phonemes in several important British dialects, where /i/ ~ (i:) is in fact longer than /I/ ~ (I). Like other vowels, both do vary in length depending on the surrounding segments, though. Yes, but it's irrelevant to meaning. Depends on what you...

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'

mxsmanic — Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:41:55 GMT

It is not true for English in Los Angeles, where tsj says he is, that "/i/ is usually long and ... pretty sure. /i/ and /I/ here have very nearly the same phonetic length; the difference is almost entirely in quality. I agree; I've noticed the same thing in American English, which makes the incorrect phonetic transcriptions used in so many English coursebooks even more misleading. Like other vowels, both do vary in length depending on the surrounding segments, though. Yes, but it's irrelevant to meaning. Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'

jim heckman — Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:01:30 GMT

On 10-Aug-2004, Mxsmanic (Email Removed) wrote in message (Email Removed): The length of vowels in English is not phonemic; that is, you can be understood whether you pronounce vowels long ... In English, /i/ is usually long and /I/ is usually short, but they are recognizable not matter what their length. It is not true for English in Los Angeles, where tsj says he is, that "/i/ is usually long and /I/ is usually short"; nor is that so for most American accents, I'm pretty sure. /i/ and /I/ here have very nearly the same phonetic length; the difference is almost entirely in quality. Like other vowels, both do vary in length depending on the surrounding segments, though. A famous example is the relative length before final...

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'

mxsmanic — Tue, 10 Aug 2004 19:41:20 GMT

For example, the tutor told me when I say 'seem', it sounds like 'sim'. The same situation may exist in 'shoulder'. The problem may be common for Chinese because chinese syllables are short. Drawling the pronunciation makes me feel exaggerated. The length of vowels in English is not phonemic; that is, you can be understood whether you pronounce vowels long or short. However, some vowels are routinely pronounced for a longer time than others, and some listeners may associate length with the timbre of the vowel (which is actually the phonemic part), so pronouncing all vowels short might confuse inattentive listeners. In English, /i/ is usually long and /I/ is usually short, but they are recognizable not matter what...

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Re: Sank/sunk, shrank/shrunk: a new view

Re: Sank/sunk, shrank/shrunk: a new view

Re: Sank/sunk, shrank/shrunk: a new view

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'

Re: pronunciation of 'shoulder' and 'l'