SPOILERS (sort of) for Mini-series: The Path to 9/11 v
V
v
V
v
V
v
New Zealand was one of the first countries to get
to see the Mini-series: The Path to 9/11 which
will be (or is) playing tonight in the States. It's worth following to get the perspective just five
years after the tragic event. Visually, it films
like all the episodes of a season of 24 crammed
into a few hours. It really is hard to fix on any
one scene for too long. It retains an almost
impassionate observation of the main players,
and the mistakes those entrusted to protect
democracy made. It's not just a boy's club
either women play their part around the
world including Monica's lips. Talk about
having your chance to wipe out a key player
in terrorism and blowing it...
Second part plays tonight - looking forward
to it.
Paul ;-)Nz
1 2
SPOILERS (sort of) for Mini-series: The Path to 9/11 v V v V v V v New Zealand was one ... out a key player in terrorism and blowing it... Second part plays tonight - looking forward to it. Paul ;-)Nz

Yeah, the perspective after only five years. Courtesy of richard mellon scaife. Did you actually use the words:

"an almost impassionate observation"
in your idiotic statement above?
^^
Or anything about 9/11, for that matter. Of course, he's in NZ, but don't forget, Australia is run by another *** right-wing lunatic...

^^
Or anything about 9/11, for that matter. Of course, he's in NZ, but don't forget, Australia is run by another *** right-wing lunatic...

Not sure why you equate Australian politics and policy with ours. We're two entirely different countries in both geography and ... on this new movie then fine. Fire away if it makes you feel better. No loose change here. Paul :-)Nz

To the knee-jerk frothing at the mouth lunatic fringe so-called writers on this newsgroup (which doesn't include everyone), ANYONE who REMOTELY says anything that could construe support and sanity in a real war on terror is a "right-wing lunatic."
I never expect them to be logical about the fact that a very real portion of the world wants to destroy the West because it represents freedom. You'd have to be able to think to see that; they're incapable. That explains the response you got.
Teachers: We supply a list of EFL job vacancies
To the knee-jerk frothing at the mouth lunatic fringe so-called writers on this newsgroup (which doesn't include everyone), ANYONE who ... about the fact that a very real portion of the world wants to destroy the West because it represents freedom.

You're conjoining one principle I think we could all agree on some terrorist groups want to destroy America with another that plays fast and loose with meaning and motivation "because it represents freedom".

While I don't believe religious extremists want the world to enjoy universal religious freedom, I also don't believe they see us as representing anything of the sort. They see us as agents of cultural oppression and the desire for christian/jewish hegemony.I believe these groups are populated by the stupid, poor, hateful and misguided members of their religions, lead by the smart, rich, hateful and misguided. But the one guiding insight that governs all of them and most of us is that we know we can't trust what our governments tell us so we have to go looking for our truth elsewhere. The big differences between us lie in where we go for our accepted truths. Here in America we have our own theories about why we're at war in Iraq availability of oil, capitalist foothold in the middle east, maintaining the dollar-based oil trade, delayed vengeance on Hussein for years of nose-thumbing but virtually nobody believes the official explanations.

Outside America, the popular theories about our motivation are somewhat different, and often center on us as religious crusaders or promoters of the Jewish state.
Its funny to me, because being a non-Jewish American, I would think about the state of Israel about as often as I think about Gambia except that it's forced so often into the news by current events. But to others it looms as large as America, China or Russia. For religious and cultural reasons it occupies an almost planetary terrain for some people, such that all their theories of world events feel its gravitational pull.

I don't sense that pull, so I sometimes have a hard time seeing America as the rest of the world sees it, as this big tool that Israel can use as it will to pound on its enemies. I find that theory ludicrous in the extreme, even while knowing that it stems from the same basic principle that governs at least some of what I believe: massive distrust of the government.

As David Cross points out, if the terrorists were actually "freedom haters" the Netherlands would be toast.
Alan Brooks

A with an Underwood
Lies, Damn Lies and Political Promises
MWSM FAQ: http://www.panix.com/~mwsm/faq.html
Filtering Trolls: http://www.panix.com/~mwsm/trolls.html
To the knee-jerk frothing at the mouth lunatic fringe so-called writers on this newsgroup (which doesn't include everyone),

You must be referring to yourself, here, right? I'm in the Writers Guild. Are you, fascistboy?
To the knee-jerk frothing at the mouth lunatic fringe so-called ... world wants to destroy the West because it represents freedom.

You're conjoining one principle I think we could all agree on some terrorist groups want to destroy America ... Brooks A with an Underwood Lies, Damn Lies and Political Promises MWSM FAQ: http://www.panix.com/~mwsm/faq.html Filtering Trolls: http://www.panix.com/~mwsm/trolls.html

Well Alan, I have a long view of history and I have a memory. As I recall, your wife or a friend of hers (?) escaped going to work at the Top of the World restaurant that day because of a kid to school or something and all their friends died there. So in responding to you I do so with special sympathy on this day because it was real up close and personal for you and yours.
In my life, I have a client in Israel. I have a former student who won the first Sundance Online Film Festival adn then worked on "The Incredibles" and other things and now has the only animation company in Israel.
So that's kind of on-topic on this group for me and I have real reasons for wanting Israel safe.
I think this statement of yours is right on -
I believe these groups are populated by the stupid, poor, hateful and misguided members of their religions, lead by the smart, rich, hateful and misguided.

I think this one is old, worn-out, muddle-headed and reeking of hippie nonsense -
But the one guiding insight that governs all of them and most of us is that we know we can't trust what our governments tell us so we have to go looking for our truth elsewhere.

I actually know people in government, ranging from ex MI-6 (that would be UK), Navy SEALs, chief of staff on both sides of the aisle, Democratic governor, etc.
The idea that governments always lie to you is ***. It's simplistic, it's "I am underdog, hear me whine!"
I think we're trying to do something damned near impossible in the Middle East - stop all that crap that's been going on for 3,000 years by establishing representative democracy there. And it's got a shot to work.
The head of Qatar's wife showed up at a big meeting after we invaded Iraq in Western dress. Caused an uproar, but women there have been doing it ever since.
Women don't get their heads chopped off in a stadium in Afghanistan any more just because the *** a guy.
The dicator of Libya GAVE UP and became cooperative.

Remember how we couldn't possibly win in Afghanistan because Alexander couldn't do it, the British couldn't do it, the Russians couldn't do it (all from the liberal so-called intelligentsia).
And now they have a democratic government aborning there.

I watched the show last night and I'll watch tonight. It was excellent.

The good guys are winning, despite Muslim encroachment trying to take over all of Europe by moving in - read Londonistan (book) some time - and the rest of the West by creating a cancer within us and blowing up children and everyone else in a cowardly way.
Some times, a demon is just a demon and you have to destroy it.
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
Well Alan, I have a long view of history and I have a memory. As I recall, your wife or ... do so with special sympathy on this day because it was real up close and personal for you and yours.

I had friends in the tower, most of whom got out. Friends of friends, and a cousin-in-law died, but my strongest feelings really stem from the experience itself, and being a New Yorker (though I was up at my weekend house in Woodstock, that morning 5 years ago). I'd bet at least half of all New Yorkers had the same connection I have, or something more direct.

Anyway, I'm not looking for any free sympathy passes.
I think this statement of yours is right on -

I wouldn't claim to know any governors personally, but I too know people at most levels of government.
The idea that governments always lie to you is ***. It's simplistic, it's "I am underdog, hear me whine!"

No government lies all the time, but they do lie constantly, and I'm surprised you read that as muddle-headed hippie nonsense when it reads as whacko right-wing nutjob nonsense to me. Even if I wrote it.

But it's true. Our government lies constantly. All governments lie constantly. Not every time a press secretary's lips move, but constantly. They lie for reasons of national security, they twist the truth to gain political leverage. They invent motivations when the real ones are unappealing to the demographic they're trying to impress. And sometimes "they" simply lie about things because "they" are people, and some people lie. Politicians have a hundred more reasons than the average joe to tell lies, and a thousands times the motivation to tell those lies with a straight face.
I'm not repeating some thoughtless cant about government lies, but I'm also surprised to hear that you, who have claimed to have secret sources that are more reliable than the public sources, would stake a claim for government honesty.
All I'm saying is that we each try to figure out the truth from the sources we trust, and we build different versions of that truth where official channels seem murky. Muslims in the middle east build a truth that's so orthogonally different from the truth most Americans try to construct, that it would sound like a fairy tale to hear it told.
I think we're trying to do something damned near impossible in the Middle East - stop all that crap that's been going on for 3,000 years by establishing representative democracy there. And it's got a shot to work.

No, it doesn't.
The head of Qatar's wife showed up at a big meeting after we invaded Iraq in Western dress. Caused an ... the Russians couldn't do it (all from the liberal so-called intelligentsia). And now they have a democratic government aborning there.

And the highest output of opium ever. The Taliban may they rot in hell at least kept a cap on that. The "democratic" government in Afghanistan would collapse like a used condom if NATO forces withdrew.

Quadaffi is playing his own game, which is nothing like democracy. There are very positive signs coming from Libya, but the future of that country is still a crap shoot.
For every example you've given of democracy initiated at the point of a gun or via economic arm-twisting there is another example of Marxist guerrillas trying to establish a new communist state (Indonesia, Nepal), or religious fanatics fighting for control of local politics (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kansas). Our current policies make us as many enemies as friends.
Mind you, I think every country in the world should adopt a system like America, Britain or France's, where everybody has a vote, and the political parties, for all their faults, are relatively representative of the population. But nobody has ever dictated this sort of arrangement from without, and it's never going to happen in Iraq until the Iraqi people figure out how they themselves want things arranged.

America is not going to make it happen, no matter how many wet dreams Karl Rove has about the Nobel Prize.
I watched the show last night and I'll watch tonight. It was excellent. The good guys are winning, despite Muslim ... everyone else in a cowardly way. Some times, a demon is just a demon and you have to destroy it.

Um... Are you talking about terrorists, religious extremists or all Muslims? One I can agree with. One is a slippery slope toward dictatorship. And one is a fast track to a membership in the Michigan Militia.

Alan Brooks

A with an Underwood
Wishin' accomplished
MWSM FAQ: http://www.panix.com/~mwsm/faq.html
Filtering Trolls: http://www.panix.com/~mwsm/trolls.html
@reader2.panix.com:
I never expect them to be logical about the fact that a very real portion of the world wants to destroy the West because it represents freedom. You'd have to be able to think to see that; they're incapable. That explains the response you got.

The only thing people in the world want more than money is freedom. The primary reasons for the two attacks on the United States were our unwavering support of Israel, our military presence in Saudi Arabia, and our multiple conflicts with Iraq which culminated in the occupation of an Arab country; probably the very worst thing we could have done if we had any intention of improving these problems.
If you want to find somebody in the world who hates freedom, try Washington D.C. Our government under conservative rule has done more to curb and destroy our freedoms than any terrorist ever has.

pwt
You paint a picture of the majority of people in government lying all the time.
That is simply not true. It's not even close to true in my experience.

I don't condemn the human race because it's troublesome.

You spoke of all government around the world as being a pack of liars. That's a very glum assessment of humanity, and I don't agree.

The fact is, this is the third incursion of Islam trying to take over the world. You can hem and haw about governments and wrongs and "so many other Muslims don't agree" but that doesn't change it. This time they'll fail like they did the other two times and this time they might effectively kill the religion. It's not governments, it's religious zealots - and don't start about right-wing Christians. Pat Robertson et al. might be crazy but they don't slit throats on camera or off.
Site Hint: Check out our list of pronunciation videos.
Show more