# re: About The Present Perfect...page 6

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CalifJim
rinoceronteRenaming Continuous aspect. Reason: it does not reflect continuity.
I don't quite see your point here. Both "progressive" and "continuous" seem to me to represent the progression or continuousness of a situation, whether as a continued activity or a continued state.He was jumping up and down.He was living in Detroit.CJ
The correct way of expressing the continuity is:

He had been jumping up and down.
He had been living in Detroit.

Continuous/Progressive, being very close to Perfect Continuous/Progressive for they both render the imperfect aspect, is responsible for only part of the continuity, i.e., for the moment. Hence, the correcter way of using Continuous would be:

He was jumping up and down at 5.30.
He was living in Detroit when Red Wings won Stanley Cup.

Although, if you can equal a continuity to a moment in your mind, you may indeed substitute Perfect Continuous with Continuous. For example, "sleeping from 5 till 6" is a continuity, and should be expressed with the help of Perfect Continuous:

He had been sleeping from 5 till 6.

But a 1-hour sleep is so eventless, it's likely that you even won't move your body during it, so you can equal THAT continuity to a moment and hence to substitute the tense. But you can't do that to ALL the continuities, because that's the logical line between those two IMPERFECT tenses: Perfect Continuous represents a continuity or duration, while Continuous represents only each moment of such continuity or duration. The difference between them is the difference between a video stream and a single shot.
CalifJim
rinoceronteAbolishing stative verbs rule.
I am not familiar with any "stative verbs rule". What does it consist of?Might you be referring to the fact that certain verbs don't occur in the continuous tenses? For example, we don't say "He is knowing the truth" or "The box was containing two apples", and so on.CJ
Yes, that's exactly what the stative verbs rule is.

The fact that you don't say "He is knowing the truth" is not an issue. What IS the issue, is that we all suddenly (in 1959) became prohibited to say "I have been knowing him for years". Or "The box has been containing two apples for an hour".

Continuous tenses are imperfect aspect. Stative verbs are of imperfect nature. Hence, the rule prohibited the stative verbs to be what they are - the imperfectly gravitated verbs. If using them in Continuous indeed might seem questionable (because it's indeed awkward to split the state into moments), preventing the stative verbs from being used in Perfect Continuous is nonsense.
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rinoceronte What IS the issue, is that we all suddenly (in 1959) became prohibited to say "I have been knowing him for years". Or "The box has been containing two apples for an hour".
I had my grammar courses in high school after 1959 and never heard of this linguistic prohibition or the person who might have said it.

My parents and grandparents (many years before 1959) never would have said

"I've been knowing him for years"
They always said "I have known him for many years."

Believe me, the reason for this is cultural, not grammatical.
rinoceronteAnd the last, please, don't insist on inventing more terms, like "perfective" or so.
One of the great flexibilities of English is the invention of new words where old ones don't fit anymore, or when something new comes along.

The beautiful adjective "gay" is almost unusable in its original meaning any more.

Boomer (baby boomer) is new because of the post-WWII demographic phenomenon, as well as thousands of new technology words - laser, thumb drive, avatar, internet, memory stick. The youngsters and marketeers are ingenious in their linguistic creativity - bummer, nimby, dinks, cool, shopaholic, crack, yuppy..... Even you have joined the crowd - coining "basement" for "theory."

There is no reason why the field of linguistics should be stuck with a vocabulary frozen in time.
Perfective sounds perfect and natural to me.
AlpheccaStarsPerfective sounds perfect and natural to me.
Ok, let it be "perfective". The point is that there is ONE notion, be it "perfect" or "perfective", not TWO.
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AlpheccaStars
rinoceronte What IS the issue, is that we all suddenly (in 1959) became prohibited to say "I have been knowing him for years". Or "The box has been containing two apples for an hour".
I had my grammar courses in high school after 1959 and never heard of this linguistic prohibition or the person who might have said it. My parents and grandparents (many years before 1959) never would have said "I've been knowing him for years" They always said "I have known him for many years."Believe me, the reason for this is cultural, not grammatical.
That means that the practice of that existed before 1959 when it was legalized by the introduction of the stative verbs rule which says "Stative verbs can't be used in continuous tenses".

The cases of using "have/has/had been knowing" are too numerous to explain them exclusively as illiteracy. Google search gives half a million results. You can find such strings even in literature. For example,
/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Обычная таблица"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} Edward P. Jones, a Pulitzer winner, in his Lost in the CIty has the following line:

“…for the first time since he had been knowing her…”

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2072274/The-Girl-Who-Raised-Pidgeons

Whitney Houston sings it too in her song "Home":

“...I wish I was back there, with the things I’ve been knowing...”

http://www.lyrics007.com/Whitney%20Houston%20Lyrics/Home%20Lyrics.html

Again, that's a highly "imperfective" verb (as any other stative verb is), there are no reasons to forbid it to be used in Perfect Continuous - the most "imperfective" of the English aspects. And the biggest problem is that it is substituted with the purely Perfect aspect. You can't confuse aspects. It's like confusing plural and singular, or feminine and masculine. They are strictly opposite.
rinoceronteThe first thing not to do is to attribute the aspects exclusively to Russian.
I don't. I only use Russian as a typical example of the phenomenon.
rinoceronteplease, don't insist on inventing more terms, like "perfective" or so. All the world's actions feel wonderfully under a simple 2-aspect verb system, no matter what language they belong to, even if it's English.
There are a great many other aspects discussed in the literature besides the two you happen to know from your own native language.

And I am not the one who invented the word "perfective". It has been around for at least 80 years, maybe more. If you knew that, you wouldn't be saying that I personally insist on inventing it.
rinoceronteThe point is that there is ONE notion, be it "perfect" or "perfective", not TWO.
You are mistaken. These are two different concepts.

For more on the difference between "perfect" and "perfective":

rinoceronteYou too make conclusions about aspects without knowing what they are (not your fault, English grammar just doesn't have this category).
Using this logic, you must be making quite a few conclusions about the perfect tenses and the continuous tenses of English without knowing what they are, because your language doesn't have these categories.

If your logic really were valid, no one would be able to learn anything about anybody else's language. You can't seriously believe such nonsense.
________

Lastly, since you have a particularly virulent hatred of the man, you may as well know how to spell his name. It's Vendler -- not Wendler. (But I suppose you'll contest that as well!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_Vendler

CJ
rinocerontethe practice of that existed before 1959 when it was legalized by the introduction of the stative verbs rule which says "Stative verbs can't be used in continuous tenses".
You have the cart before the horse. The practices exist in the language first, such as native speakers' preference for non-continuous tenses with stative verbs. Then linguists describe what they observe in the language. Their descriptions should not be confused with "rules". Linguists don't pass laws about how people are allowed to speak! Not even the famous (or infamous) Vendler had the power to do that!

CJ
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rinoceronteEdward P. Jones, a Pulitzer winner, in his Lost in the CIty has the following line:
“…for the first time since he had been knowing her…”

Whitney Houston sings it too in her song "Home":
“...I wish I was back there, with the things I’ve been knowing...”

Yes, I think you got my point.

Regards,
A-s