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AlpheccaStarsI think you got my point.
The point that it's cultural, I assume, both examples having been generated by African Americans?

CJ
Yes. My folks are from the deep south, and a great-great-grandfather of mine even had 2 slaves on his tobacco farm. (We have an old will in the family records.) My grandmother's mother was living during reconstruction. The times after the war were incredibly hard. My grandfather told us that the Yanks didn't leave even a squirrel alive on the land, let alone farm animals and seed corn. To say that the relations between the freed slaves and poor whites was hostile is a gross understatement.

Language usage is wedded to culture and cultural biases. African Americans had developed their own distinctive language patterns, especially notable in the verb inflections and phrases. The whites deemed the language of the blacks to be inferior and something to be avoided.

Racial prejudice was still rampant in the 1950's, so I am not surprised that a contemporary linguist would make his observations on "proper usage" based on the language of the educated white population.

Regards,
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AlpheccaStarsI am not surprised that a contemporary linguist would make his observations on "proper usage" based on the language of the educated white population.
But rino thinks that the black population, in this case, is the one with "proper usage". Apparently, African Americans speak the way Russians think all Americans should speak. This thread is getting stranger with every post.

CJ
CalifJimThere are a great many other aspects discussed in the literature besides the two you happen to know from your own native language. And I am not the one who invented the word "perfective". It has been around for at least 80 years, maybe more. If you knew that, you wouldn't be saying that I personally insist on inventing it.
rinoceronteThe point is that there is ONE notion, be it "perfect" or "perfective", not TWO.
You are mistaken. These are two different concepts.For more on the difference between "perfect" and "perfective":
Again, no. "Perfective" and "perfect" are the same thing. The same aspect. Those who insists they are not, do it for one reason: to justify the presence of the word "present" in Present Perfect. Since they use Present Perfect to render ongoing actions (which, of course, can not be perfect, or, perfective, if you prefer) they decided to separate "perfect" into some distinct category. It's clearly seen from the link you gave:

"A perfect is a grammatical form used to describe what is variously described as a past event with present relevance, or a present state resulting from a past situation. For example, "I have come to the cinema" implies both that I went to the cinema and that I am now in the cinema".

It's one of the crookedest ways to describe Present Perfect. "I bought a car two years ago" may perfectly mean as well that I still own the car, i.e., the result of the action is still valid. But you iwll never use Present Perfect with "two years ago".
CalifJimLastly, since you have a particularly virulent hatred of the man, you may as well know how to spell his name. It's Vendler -- not Wendler. (But I suppose you'll contest that as well!)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_VendlerCJ
This German surname is spelled "Wendler". The fact that he decided to change it to adjust the way it sounds (German "w" = English "v") is not my problem. The immigrants often adjust their surnames in new environments, you can't follow all those changes.

What kind of hatred are you talking about? The guy made a mistake, which corrupted the language. That's all that I want to tell about him.
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CalifJimTheir descriptions should not be confused with "rules". Linguists don't pass laws about how people are allowed to speak! Not even the famous (or infamous) Vendler had the power to do that!CJ
I'm glad that you think so. But unfirtunately you won't pass any exam nor test if you don't follow this "rule"
CalifJim
AlpheccaStarsI am not surprised that a contemporary linguist would make his observations on "proper usage" based on the language of the educated white population.
But rino thinks that the black population, in this case, is the one with "proper usage". Apparently, African Americans speak the way Russians think all Americans should speak. This thread is getting stranger with every post. CJ
You should be very, very, very careful to make comments like this. It's indeed cultural, but cultural. Cultural superiority in this case. Both Jones and Houston showed their feeling of aspects, even if they are not present officially in their language.

What about Indians? In another thread on this forum dedicated to Perfect Continuous for stative verbs someone commented a couple of years ago that he associated phrases like "I've been knowing him for years..." strongly with Indian English. Again cultural? In whose favour? I'll tell you, in whose favour. I don't know which Indians that person referred to, but it works for both. The first thing to do after such a statement was to check if Indians from India had the category of aspect. It turned out, that of course they did, both in Ancient Indian and Modern one (both Hindi and Sanskrit). That's the reason the person associates this phrase with Indians. Not because they are stupid, but vice versa - because they are too wise. If the person referred to North American Indians, it's even worse. The Algonquin tribe Indians, having no written language, if I'm not mistaken, nevertheless have six aspects, including, of course, perfect and imperfect.
CalifJimThere are a great many other aspects discussed in the literature besides the two you happen to know from your own native language.
Of course, I know that. But not all of the aspects are equally significant. Many of them are variations of two main aspects - perfect and imperfect. Again, in Slavic languages these two aspects (not great many other aspects) are mentioned in the very definition of the verb as a grammatical notion, which every schoolboy learns by heart when he is 9 or 10 years old. Roman verb system (Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian) is based on perfect and imperfect aspects, not on the great many other aspects. Let's move step by step. First, perfect and imperfect, then the rest of the aspects.
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rinoceronteAgain, no. "Perfective" and "perfect" are the same thing. The same aspect. Those who insists they are not, do it for one reason: to justify the presence of the word "present" in Present Perfect.
You are repeating the same thing again and again. You have made up your mind to the point that I don't believe the most rational argument could ever disabuse you of your mistaken views. With that attitude you will never understand how English works.

I have no more to say, so there is no need for you to reply.

CJ
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