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This is a case where ASCII IPA might prove useful: See http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan Kirshenbaum/IPA/ and http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan Kirshenbaum/IPA/english.html

Ray, if you're going to point people to those documents, could you point them to
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/index.htm
and
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/english.html
The others are still there because there are a lot of pages pointing to them on the web, but I don't maintain them anymore. One of these days I should find out if there's now a way to get the old URLs to actually forward to my site.

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >There is something fascinating
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >about science. One gets suchPalo Alto, CA 94304 >wholesale returns of conjecture out

(650)857-7572 > Mark Twain

http://www.kirshenbaum.net /
This is a case where ASCII IPA might prove useful: See http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan Kirshenbaum/IPA/ and http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan Kirshenbaum/IPA/english.html

Ray, if you're going to point people to those documents, could you point them to http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/index.htm and http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/english.html The others ... I should find out if there's now a way to get the old URLs to actually forward to my site.

I've made a note of it, Evan. However, that first URL should be

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/IPA/index.html

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Site Hint: Check out our list of pronunciation videos.
}

}>
}> > A few years ago, I recorded myself saying
}> >
}> > father, bother, on, swan, all, sorry, wash, saw, pop, caught }> >
}> > and put it at
}> >
}> > http://www.euronet.nl/users/trio/father.wav }> >
}> > You may have to try a couple of times to get it to play. }> >
}> > To me, those are all the same vowel, although the following L and R in }> > "all" and "sorry" affect the color slightly.
}>
}> My recollection is that there were at least a couple of distinct }> allophones there. My conclusion, and I think R J Valentine shared it, was }> that, despite your CICness, you are "one of us". }
} What the darn tootin' are you talking about? What club are you trying to } make me a member of?
}
} I think I remember you spinning some wild yarn last time, but that } doesn't mean I believed it.
I only vaguely recall what I might've said last time, but listening to this again now brought the joy of clicking back. What you've got there is one of the finest sets of vowels I've put my ears to in a long time. The ah's are ah's and the aw's are aw's. Hang on a second.
Okay, I listened to it again. There are clear aw's in "all" "saw" "wash", and "caught", and there are clear ah's in the rest impressively so in "sorry". If you can't hear the difference, you're really missing something. I don't know what you mean by "color", but your "all" and "sorry" are on opposite sides of the fence. This is not the stuff of Sparky in his "hot coffee" recording, where you're stuck in (A)-ville. This is more like his 'People call me "Bob"' recording, where aw's are aw's and ah's are ah's, and there's no beating around the bush about it.

I'm starting to wake people up around here, and I'm sorely tempted to go get the headphones from the other computer and crank up the volume to where it almost hurts. If you want to contrast your recording with something, take a listen to Sparky's "Arthur the Rat" recording in his NUPE mode, nicely enough done, but plainly CIC and MINIM. He kindly provided a TUP URL, so I could refresh my memory on that. If you've got any other recordings sitting around the Web (or that could be made to be without much trouble (an "Arthur the Rat" reading might be too much to hope for), I'd gladly give that a listen, too, to see if maybe I just got the wrong impression with the isolated words in this recording.

Who knows, maybe Sparky will be independently moved (and I hope that mentioning the possibility doesn't discourage him) to hook up his Praat program to your recording above and see if there isn't something common to the "aw" words listed above that isn't common to the rest (especially "sorry", where a lot of people otherwise in CINC might stick an "aw").

But you're certainly not as CIC as you seem to claim.

R. J. Valentine
(discussing http://www.euronet.nl/users/trio/father.wav )
But you're certainly not as CIC as you seem to claim.

But am I saying "cot" or "caught" at the end, then? Because if CINC, then I can't be saying both, I only utter one word. To me, they are the same, CIC.

Best Donna Richoux
(to Donna Richoux)
But you're certainly not as CIC as you seem to claim.

What he said. I've been toying around with this theory for a long time, that basically goes like this: A lot of American speakers who think* they merge cot and caught, and who are even *heard* by other speakers (CIC or even CINC) as merging cot and caught, do *not*, in *reality, merge cot and caught. I'd ask Aaron Dinkin to look into this, but I don't want to put his advisor out of business. We're sacrificing a lot to send young Aaron to grad school.
Donna Richoux may be evidence of what I'm talking about. She's really CINC, only she thinks she's CIC. Why else do we like her vowels so much? With Sparky it's a whole nother matter, and I haven't heard that latest recording.
Note that Donna Richoux has, in the past, alluded to an upbringing in the San Francisco Bay Area (often known, today, as "the Bay Area" as if there were no other bays). Young Dinkin's advisor himself has presented data suggesting that the San Francisco Bay Area may be a hotbed of CINCism amid the vast Californian CIC desert.What I don't get is, how can someone really* be CINC, but *think they're CIC in the face of all the social pressures out there making one want to think they're CINC? Take English spelling, one. I'll bet that supposedly-CIC composers of verse and dawgerel will prefer to distinguish a caught/fraught rhyme from a cot/dot rhyme even if they think these all rhyme with one another. How about phonics and early child readin' and ritin' education in the Western US, or Eastern Mass.? Surely CIC Americans are aware of pressures out there inclining them to be CINC.

They may resist those pressures, yes, or they may think they're resisting them, but they still have to be aware of them. CICs like Donna, Bawb, Aaron ... these are intelligent people, people who weren't barn in a born, as they say in non-NUPE regions of Utah.
Does anyone understand what I'm talking about here?
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
(to Donna Richoux)

But you're certainly not as CIC as you seem to claim.

What he said. I've been toying around with this theory for a long time, that basically goes like this: A ... I'm talking about. She's really CINC, only she thinks she's CIC. Why else do we like her vowels so much?

Who ever said you hated CIC voices? Tons of famous people talk this way.
With Sparky it's a whole nother matter, and I haven't heard that latest recording. Note that Donna Richoux has, in ... barn in a born, as they say in non-NUPE regions of Utah. Does anyone understand what I'm talking about here?

I ask you the same question I asked RJ. Was my last word "caught" or "cot"? Answer: since I pronounce them exactly the same, there is no way you can tell. Therefore, all the rest of this speculation is sheer fantasy.
Imagine I recorded a random string of "caught, cot, cot, cot, caught..." up to, say, twenty times, and asked you to write down your guess of which I was saying each time. I am certain you would come out around 50% correct i.e., no better than random chance.
I would do that if I thought it was simple to make a sound file, but my recollection is that it was not.

Best Donna Richoux
Where I come from, good old England (north), these equalities hold. However, when chatting on IRC to an American about ... ah explain to me how s/he sees it, as it is hard for me to realise it. Thanks a lot!

Sounds familiar. googles Ah, or . Of course, if you hadn't asked again, we wouldn't have gotten Aaron's post on vowel classes, among other things.

Jerry Friedman
(to Donna Richoux)

I ask you the same question I asked RJ. Was my last word "caught" or "cot"? Answer: since I pronounce them exactly the same, there is no way you can tell. Therefore, all the rest of this speculation is sheer fantasy.

It was "caught".
At least as someone posting under the name "Donna Richoux" said,

A few years ago, I recorded myself saying
father, bother, on, swan, all, sorry, wash, saw, pop, caught

and put it at
http://www.euronet.nl/users/trio/father.wav

Imagine I recorded a random string of "caught, cot, cot, cot, caught..." up to, say, twenty times, and asked you ... that if I thought it was simple to make a sound file, but my recollection is that it was not.

But in the spirit of scientific inquiry ...

rzed
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
(to Donna Richoux)

But you're certainly not as CIC as you seem to claim.

What he said. I've been toying around with this theory for a long time, that basically goes like this: A ... by other speakers (CIC or even CINC) as merging cot and caught, do not*, in *reality, merge cot and caught.

If in reality they do not really merge cot and caught how, then, does your theory account for their actually being "*heard by other speakers (CIC or even CINC) as merging cot and caught"?
A countervailing theory: A lot of American speakers who do not think* they merge cot and caught, and who are even *heard* by other speakers (CIC or even CINC) as not merging cot and caught, *do*, in *reality, merge cot and caught. ) (I hope you don't frown on smileys.)

Valenzia
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