re: Ah = Ar, Aw = Or, Aw =/= Ah / Ar page 8
}
}> (I've substituted "formant analysis" for (*)RFs(*) "Praat", }> because I'm reasonably certain that's what he meant. Praat }> does a great many things other than formant analysis, and }> Praat is not the only way to do formant analysis.) }
} "RF's".
There are two of them? Oh, yeah. I forgot about the NYU one. (I took the Pi Mu Epsilon contest at NYU in 1959 and 1960 (or maybe it was 1960 and 1961), right there off Washington Square.)
R. J. Valentine
}> (I've substituted "formant analysis" for (*)RFs(*) "Praat", }> because I'm reasonably certain that's what he meant. Praat }> does a great many things other than formant analysis, and }> Praat is not the only way to do formant analysis.) }
} "RF's".
There are two of them? Oh, yeah. I forgot about the NYU one. (I took the Pi Mu Epsilon contest at NYU in 1959 and 1960 (or maybe it was 1960 and 1961), right there off Washington Square.)
R. J. Valentine
...
} I find that I can switch between "bother-sans-b" and "father-sans-f" } without moving my lips in the slightest, a bit like a vent would do, } perhaps. Is this encompassed by your theory? It seems to me as if my } mouth is internally making quite different sounds for these vowels, both } issuing from the same lip shape.
It's encompassed by my theory (and I may be the one Mr. Cunningham refers to). I like to think of it as the Ventriloquists-Exist* Theory (VET).
(* & disguise any movement in their observable lips.)
It's not like my very existence is saying that Mr. Cunningham is a complete crackpot. He's right to the extent that someone teaching British English to an Albanian, once there's enough "aw" in the (A), could say, "Okay, now round your lips like you're going to pronounce a (y) and try the (A) sound to approximate the (A.) sound (which may be described (=?BCE 'defined') by phoneticists (who ought to know better) as 'rounded'." But there are all sorts of ways to skin a cat.
There exist British ventriloquists. I don't doubt that Mr. Cunningham rounds his lips to make the sound that he may or may not admit to being able to make. I can* round my lips to make the (A.) sound, just as I *can round my lips to make the (y) sound and the (u) sound. Once I know how to make the sounds, though, I can stand on my head and spit wooden nickels and still make the same sound, possibly at least as well as Mr. Cunningham can. Or maybe someone is thinking that I'm saying I can make those sounds with my mouth wide open in the 'stick out your tongue and say "ah"' position.
I can't. Maybe his way out of absurdity is to claim that I make all my vowels rounded. In a sense, that's true, because I rarely have to go all the way to the "ah" or the "oo" positions, and it would indeed be difficult for even me to make a good "ah" in the full "oo" position and vice versa. But there's a middle range where I can do a credible job of all the vowels and most of the consonants.
R. J. Valentine
} I find that I can switch between "bother-sans-b" and "father-sans-f" } without moving my lips in the slightest, a bit like a vent would do, } perhaps. Is this encompassed by your theory? It seems to me as if my } mouth is internally making quite different sounds for these vowels, both } issuing from the same lip shape.
It's encompassed by my theory (and I may be the one Mr. Cunningham refers to). I like to think of it as the Ventriloquists-Exist* Theory (VET).
(* & disguise any movement in their observable lips.)
It's not like my very existence is saying that Mr. Cunningham is a complete crackpot. He's right to the extent that someone teaching British English to an Albanian, once there's enough "aw" in the (A), could say, "Okay, now round your lips like you're going to pronounce a (y) and try the (A) sound to approximate the (A.) sound (which may be described (=?BCE 'defined') by phoneticists (who ought to know better) as 'rounded'." But there are all sorts of ways to skin a cat.
There exist British ventriloquists. I don't doubt that Mr. Cunningham rounds his lips to make the sound that he may or may not admit to being able to make. I can* round my lips to make the (A.) sound, just as I *can round my lips to make the (y) sound and the (u) sound. Once I know how to make the sounds, though, I can stand on my head and spit wooden nickels and still make the same sound, possibly at least as well as Mr. Cunningham can. Or maybe someone is thinking that I'm saying I can make those sounds with my mouth wide open in the 'stick out your tongue and say "ah"' position.
I can't. Maybe his way out of absurdity is to claim that I make all my vowels rounded. In a sense, that's true, because I rarely have to go all the way to the "ah" or the "oo" positions, and it would indeed be difficult for even me to make a good "ah" in the full "oo" position and vice versa. But there's a middle range where I can do a credible job of all the vowels and most of the consonants.
R. J. Valentine
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
There are two of them? Oh, yeah. I forgot about the NYU one. (I took the Pi Mu Epsilon contest at NYU in 1959 and 1960 (or maybe it was 1960 and 1961), right there off Washington Square.)
Speaking of Jan Sand's Manhattan, guess which presidential candidate grew up in a wealthy household on the Upper East Side? Yup, Vermont Governor Howard Dean. Everyone pay close attention to his accent. There's something wrong with his /&/s, I've noticed.
Learning that Dean was from the Upper East Side, I next had to find out what sort of middle name he had. Was it, say, "Vliet"? Well, no, even better: "Brush". Howard Brush Dean III.
BTW, speaking of "Brush", Dennis Kucinich has textbook Northern Cities Vowel Shift, right down to the hairstyle.
MMDK!
( . . . )
I find that I can switch between "bother-sans-b" and "father-sans-f" without moving my lips in the slightest, a bit like a vent would do, perhaps.
This shows that you don't speak the English accent that has been spoken by speakers of RP that I've heard.
Nonsense. How does it appear to you to show that?
Is this encompassed by your theory?
MY theory?! I have mentioned no principle that isn't covered in elementary phonetics texts.
The point at issue is whether it's sensible and reasonable to describe the initial vowel sounds of "bother" and "father" as rendered in the RP of 2003 as "the same vowel" give or take "rounding".
I say it isn't. Do your elementary phonetics texts say that it is, or is it your own theory?
For reference purposes I'm accepting as RP Markus Laker's noisy and muffled rendering on the AUE site; I just think I'm hearing it differently than/from/to you.
Matti
(his usual crap about pronouncing (A.) without lip rounding, and we still have no way of knowing what sound he makes that he thinks is (A.))
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
( . . . ) This shows that you don't speak the English accent that has been spoken by speakers of RP that I've heard.
Nonsense. How does it appear to you to show that?
Okay, it doesn't. What I should have said was "This shows that you don't speak the English accent that is reported by British dictionaries." As for what I've heard, all I can say is that when Markus says "bother" or "Bob", it sounds as though he's rounding his lips, and I strongly suspect that he is.
MY theory?! I have mentioned no principle that isn't covered in elementary phonetics texts.
The point at issue is whether it's sensible and reasonable to describe the initial vowel sounds of "bother" and "father" as rendered in the RP of 2003 as "the same vowel" give or take "rounding".
And this is an issue that you might better take up with the publishers of British dictionaries. The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary was published in 1993. Maybe it's time for them to bring their pronunciations up to date.
I say it isn't. Do your elementary phonetics texts say that it is, or is it your own theory?
I have mentioned no principle that isn't covered in elementary phonetics texts.
For reference purposes I'm accepting as RP Markus Laker's noisy and muffled rendering on the AUE site;
If Markus Laker's rendition of "Bother, father ... " is noisy and muffled at your house, you probably need some work on your system. A lot of the recordings that Igor Merfert collected for the Audio Archive are of poor quality, but this one is quite clear and sufficiently noise free.
I just think I'm hearing it differently than/from/to you.
That's possible. Actually, there are two separate issues here. One is whether or not Markus rounds his lips when he says "bother". The other is whether British dictionaries are telling the truth when they say that "bother" is pronounced with a vowel that is the same as the one in "father" except with added lip rounding.
The first one doesn't involve a principle of phonetics, and I don't feel strongly about my opinion regarding it. It can't be fully resolved without asking Markus.
The second one is the only one that I feel is really important: When British dictionaries say that "bother" and "father" are pronounced with the same first vowel except that one is rounded and the other is not, are they or are they not telling the truth?
The second one is the only one that I feel is really important: When British dictionaries say that "bother" ... vowel except that one is rounded and the other is not, are they or are they not telling the truth?
If they really do say that then I think they are confused.
I am perfectly capable of uttering RP which matches, for the sake of reference, Markus Laker's example. When I do so, I can "feel" that the two vowels in question are being produced by a different arrangement of the throat (I don't know the technical terminology) which is independent of my lip shape. Certainly, the "bother" vowel tends to be associated with a rounder lip shape than the "father" vowel; but I am absolutely convinced that this doesn't go to the heart of the difference between the vowels, as my ventriloquial excursion indicated.
I would be grateful if other Brits who can produce RP would comment. Are these really "the same vowel" in any meaningful way?
Matti
The second one is the only one that I ... not, are they or are they not telling the truth?
If they really do say that then I think they are confused. I am perfectly capable of uttering RP which ... grateful if other Brits who can produce RP would comment. Are these really "the same vowel" in any meaningful way?
No. Apart from the lip-rounding which, as you say, isn't essential to obtaining a typical RP (A.) there's some kind of throat constriction going on too, you're right.
Put it this way: (A.) is really no closer to (A
than it is to, say, (3 or (V), and the degree of rounding isn't the key to producing any of them.Also, with all due respect to Markus, if he's the Totally Official AUE yardstick for RP, which in turn is (unfortunately, but let's not go there) the default for BrE pronunciation, then we're in trouble I doubt even 1% of today's Brits speak that way. Maybe it's the poor quality of the recording, but if that accent were any plummier it'd be hanging from a tree in an orchard.)
**
Ross Howard
Teachers: We supply a list of EFL job vacancies
Also, with all due respect to Markus, if he's the Totally Official AUE yardstick for RP, which in turn is ... quality of the recording, but if that accent were any plummier it'd be hanging from a tree in an orchard.)
Are we listening to the same sound file? This one, marked RP speaker?
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/audio archive.shtml
If so, then we sure aren't using the same definition of "plummy." I would think you'd mean the old-fashioned RP, the one that makes younger people sound pompous if they use it. Markus doesn't talk with in an old-fashioned RP accent at all. I hear them enough on BBC to know. Listen to his "coffee," "more," and "tasting." I met Markus some years back, a delightful person, but I couldn't help thinking that RP didn't mean what it used to.
I'll see if I can find a sound file of what I'd call plummy... Okay, the first speaker here is reasonably so (not ridiculously or exaggeratedly so I've heard worse):
http://www.ukans.edu/~idea/index2.html
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