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The traditional Chinese character for "nation" ("guo") contains a pictograph of a lance (for an army), a mouth (for a language), and what was originally earth, surrounded by borders.

This pictograph for a lance and a mouth is a separate character, which mean "or, probable, maybe" and
is pronounced huo4. Its function in the character for "nation" is that of a phonogram, i.e. a phonetic complement. It is also found functioning as a phonetic complement in the character (also pronounced huo4) which means "to be puzzled, to wonder), this time associated with xin "heart".

There is, however a character for "nation" which is probably pictographic: wang2 "king" in a square, but nowadays you'll see it with an added dot, which turns "king" into "jade" (it didn't do to spell "republic" with a "king" in it!). All three are interchangeable. They different "spellings" of the same word.
The traditional Chinese character for "nation" ("guo") contains a pictograph ... a language), and what was originally earth, surrounded by borders.

This pictograph for a lance and a mouth is a separate character, which mean "or, probable, maybe" and is pronounced huo4. Its function in the character for "nation" is that of a phonogram, i.e. a phonetic complement.

William McNaughton/Li Ying disagree completely with your statement, indicating that the orginal meaning of huo4 (all the elements of guo excepting the borders) was also "nation", and that it was later reclarified with the surround radical. The "one" was originally "earth", according to them.
There is, however a character for "nation" which is probably pictographic: wang2 "king" in a square, but nowadays you'll see ... do to spell "republic" with a "king" in it!). All three are interchangeable. They different "spellings" of the same word.

Yes, that's the "modern" form of guo. I didn't know that it existed before with the wang2 rather than yu inside the surround radical. I guess that explains where they got it from. Presumably, dethroning the king was a political statement of the communists.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

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William McNaughton/Li Ying disagree completely with your statement, indicating that the orginal meaning of huo4 (all the elements of guo excepting the borders) was also "nation", and that it was later reclarified with the surround radical. The "one" was originally "earth", according to them.

Well, I am skeptical. How does it manage to mean "or, maybe, possible"? And "puzzled"? And if the original meaning of "borderless" huo4 was originally "nation" I would expect to find it so used in Japanese too. But this character is only used to write aru "some, a certain" and aruiwa "or".
William McNaughton/Li Ying disagree completely with your statement, indicating that ... surround radical. The "one" was originally "earth", according to them.

Well, I am skeptical. How does it manage to mean "or, maybe, possible"? And "puzzled"?

By sound-loan, according to them.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

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SP.0> The traditional Chinese character for "nation" ("guo") contains a SP.0> pictograph of a lance (for an army), a mouth (for a language), and SP.0> what was originally earth, surrounded by borders.

國 u+570b.

JG.1> This pictograph for a lance and a mouth is a separate JG.1> character, which mean "or, probable, maybe" and JG.1> is pronounced huo4.
, also 或 u+6216.
JG.1> Its function in the character for "nation"
JG.1> is that of a phonogram, i.e. a phonetic complement.

SP.2> William McNaughton/Li Ying disagree completely with your statement, SP.2> indicating that the orginal meaning of huo4 (all the elements of guo SP.2> excepting the borders) was also "nation" The "one" was originally SP.2> "earth", according to them.
Correct except for one aspect: inside / 或 u+6216 , what looks like the character for mouth ( 口 u+) is actually the archaic character for "enclosure" ( 囗 u+56d7, later became 圍 u+570d ). In other words: a piece of land with a guard and a boundary; no reference to language. Note that when used in this sense, the pronunciation should be .

SP.2> and that it was later reclarified with the surround radical.

Similar differentiations:
/ 或 u+6216
+ 囗 u+56d7 ("enclosure") = 國 u+570b + 土 u+571f ("earth/land") = 域 u+57df + 田 u+7530 ("field") = 田或 u+36f3 + 阝 u+961d, same as
阜 u+961c ("continent") = 阝或 u+49d5 + 广 u+5e7f ("house on cliff") = 广或 + 享 u+4eab ("to receive food"(*)) = 享或

The 's were more or less interchangeable, with 域 u+57df being the canonical form these days. The modern meaning is a district or area. Whereas 國 u+570b becomes specialized into "country".

JG.3> Well, I am skeptical. How does it manage to mean "or, JG.3> maybe, possible"? And "puzzled"?
JG.4> By sound-loan, according to them.
According to Morohashi,
/ 或 u+6216 has been also borrowed for

惑 u+60d1 ("confused")
又 u+53c8 ("also")
有 u+6709 ("to have")
彧 u+5f67 & variants
有彧
郁 u+90c1 ("thriving", "cultured")
或(*)
巛 u+21fff ("sound of flowing water")
(*) 或 on top of 巛; see http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/refglyph?24-21fff ; also a variant that has a 有 on the left.

JG.1> There is, however a character for "nation" which is JG.1> probably pictographic: wang2 "king" in a square, but JG.1> nowadays you'll see it with an added dot, which turns JG.1> "king" into "jade" (it didn't do to spell "republic" with JG.1> a "king" in it!). All three are interchangeable. They JG.1> different "spellings" of the same word.
国 u+56fd vs 囯 u+56ef (囗玉 vs 囗王)
SP.2> Yes, that's the "modern" form of guo. I didn't know that it existed SP.2> before with the wang2 rather than yu inside the surround radical. I SP.2> guess that explains where they got it from. Presumably, dethroning SP.2> the king was a political statement of the communists.

Well, according to Morohashi, 国 u+56fd (with "jade") is a "vernacular variant"), while 囯 u+56ef (with "king") is a "vernacular *Sino-Japanese* variant". In other words, the latter is created by the Japanese and not used in China. So, apparently the communists are off the hook for now.

Tak

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It's a language because people who decide these things (the people who speak it) say it's a language. Who understands what is just not

There must be some Scots who don't consider Scots to be a separate language, but a dialect of English. Whether they constitute a minority or a majority of Scots, I have no idea.

Why must there be? There have at various times been people who have insisted that some or other minority or non-recognised language variety was a dialect, a patois or whatever - in some cases they were right in others wrong and the reason in the final analysis is that one or other view prevails socially. Whether or not the East Timorese are a people is not a matter of genetics or anyother technical fact but a matter of whether the view held (as it happens by the majority of the people) that they are a people comes to be the dominant view. It's the same with language and dialect.
Jim
It's a language because people who decide these things (the ... intelligible but they aren't usefully conceived of as one language:

Note that where Scots uses different words to standard received English (whatever you conceive that to be), e.g. "til", "siccer", "ken", "scrieve" (for "to", "sure", "know" and "write" respectively), the Scots words are closer to other Germanic or Scandinavian languages.

Spoken Scots may well be a mystery to me here in Wales, but wid a wee kenning o Jairman an aifin muir wee o Sweditch the written language can be worked out without too much trouble.
Our own dialect Wenglish is a mystery to some indeed to goodness look you now Emotion: smile

Paul Townsend
I put it down there, and when I went back to it, there it was GONE!

Interchange the alphabetic elements to reply
Probably a more 'find and replace' friendly wording. Past tenses were simply changed to -it as in producit, involvit, designit, impairit, disablit. According to David Purves in his book A Scots Grammar (ISBN: 0854110798) 'when the infinitive ends in silent -e, -d is added.' Reflecting the pronunciation I assume. The website http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/verbs.htm says the same as Purves.

Another goodie is 'memmers', 'memmer' couldn't be found in the dictionary of the Scots language at http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl /. No great surprise because 'memmers' has obviously been created by analogy with 'nummers' (numbers). Since the stress patterns in both words are different 'members' is pronounced so in Scots. No doubt the find and replace 'translator' didn't juist swap -ed for -it but 'mb' for 'mm' as well.
Interestingly 'scrieve' according to http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl / doesn't mean exactly the same thing as 'write' but then again perhaps the 'translator' was sweirt to use a good Scots word like 'write'.

The 'Scottish' in Scottish Pairlament is interesting. According to http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl / (SND) Scots is the Scots for Scottish.

Alan
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Scots could be categorized as a separate language if Scotland ... this idea of languages having armies, but it works here.

Spehro> The traditional Chinese character for "nation" ("guo") Spehro> contains a pictograph of a lance (for an army), a mouth Spehro> (for a language), and what was originally earth, Spehro> surrounded by borders.
No. That's not a pictograph. The thing inside the square "border" is a phonetic radical, pronounced in Mandarin, thus hinting that the pronuncation of that character is something like . Since and share the same point of articulation, this reinforces the fact that the part is a phonetic radical.

The only "pictographic" element in that character is perhaps what you describe as the "border". But it isn't that pictographic. The border of China is and was not square in shape. I'd say it's signific. The square shape doesn't matter. Just the enclosing matters. So, the idea is associated via an abstract manner. I won't call that "pictographic".

Lee Sau Dan +Z05biGVm- ~{@nJX6X~}

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