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Thanks Brian, that's very interesting. May I ask how you come to be so knowledgeable in this area?
I am not trying to be smart, I am genuinely interested.

thanks
Bill
The problem with the above is that you are assuming that identification with a people automatically leads to identification with a language. It does not.

You are, of course, correct linguistically, but think of all the wars and less serious fights that have been caused by what people regard as their language, whether they were correct or not.

Rob Bannister
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make a *** effort then

you, I do. I could not understand "Trainspotting" and neither could anyone in my family. And we all did our best. Scots is separate language.

Maybe you've only heard Glaswegian. If so, then you may be correct, but most Scots are intelligible - some of the Highlanders speak, if anything, more clearly than some of us.

Rob Bannister
The problem with the above is that you are assuming that identification with a people automatically leads to identification with a language. It does not.

You are, of course, correct linguistically, but think of all the wars and less serious fights that have been caused by what people regard as their language, whether they were correct or not.[/nq]Isn't is a question of anthropology rather than linguistics? The person to whom I was replying appeared to think that because the Scots consider themselves a people, they would identify their speech as a language, "Scots," and avoid identifying their speech with the English (who have their own language, "English"). (If I'm distorting his position, I hope he will correct me.) I was saying that a Scot could very well identify himself as a Scot but nevertheless identify his speech (the variety of speech he uses most often among his friends and family members) as a variety of English, and consider himself to be part of the community of English speakers because of it.

This is in addition to being a part of the community of English speakers as a consequence of being bidialectal which applies to most or all Scots, does it not?

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
(Email Removed) wrote in
Thanks Brian, that's very interesting. May I ask how you come to be so knowledgeable in this area (Scots)? I am not trying to be smart, I am genuinely interested.

No problem. Actually, I don't consider myself particularly knowledgeable in this specific area; I'm interested in languages generally and in Germanic languages and the linguistic and onomastic history of the British Isles especially, so I've picked up a fair bit of information and some useful reference books along the way, but it's all definitely at the interested amateur level.
Brian
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English Scots

Note Scots Gaelic sgriobh, pronounced skreev. (Gaelic has an intricate ... have been borrowed from the Hallstatt or La Tene Celts.

Well, according to the Grimms, a Germanic cognate of "securus" would have had an "h" where that Latin "c" is, ... it here, and should probably stop and listen to my own semi-snotty advice: it really isn't simple, izzit? CDB

Let me put your mind at rest - neither word was borrowed by or from Gaelic, although there has been a lot of borrowing, unsuprising as Gaelic was for a while the most-spoken language in Scotland but gave way before the onslaught of court-Scots/English.
Michilín
I had always assumed that siccar is from German sicher ... have been borrowed from the Hallstatt or La Tene Celts.

With Celtic having got it from PIE? Sanskrit has Raj.

Why not both sources? Romany uses Rai to mean a gentleman and there seems no reason to suppose that it couldn't have been a variant of Raj as in Rege, Rai, Righ.
Michilín
Mind you it is fair to say that I have ... apparently it is a waterfall, or more like a weir.

It's a variant of Scots 'a fish-trap in the form of an enclosure or row of stakes across a ... fold, a hut', which was borrowed by the Norse as 'a sheepfold'. (This is from the Concise Scots Dictionary.)

With that amount of semantic shift, it's no wonder I couldn't find it! Thanks Brian.
John.
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.... Note Scots Gaelic sgriobh, pronounced skreev. (Gaelic has an intricate orthography as it uses only 18 letters to represent ... and empire/reich/kingdom is rioghachd (REE-akh-k). Many people consider Reich to have been borrowed from the Hallstatt or La Tene Celts.

Don't know who these last two are, but I would have assumed that all of these ultimately descend from Latin rex, regalis, (or regs, regalis, I'm told before the x made its appearance.) meaning king. In the same way that Caesar made it to German as Kaiser, and to Russian as tsar.
Michilín

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