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I consider him a Fellow American regardless of what his citizenship is.

No you wouldn't. Not if he were someone not known to you personally in some aspect.

Yes I wouldn, honestly. I consider any immigrant in the US to be an American by default. The only thing that would make me consider such a person not to be an American is if the person expresses an intention to go back to the mother country (or to some third country). I recognize that you have a different view.
"Americanized" and "American" are two entirely different words. They don't mean the same thing. In many cases, they don't even mean close to the same thing.

I agree. That's why an illegal alien who's been in the US for a few weeks can be an American to me, even though it's not likely such a person would be Americanized.
For me, to be called a foreigner, one has to ... foreigners. What are others' views on this subject? Cheers, Matt

A foreigner is from another country (including the past) In my Social Security days, I once gave a colleague guidance ... it happens, married to a Canadian (not the one who claimed) and took umbrage. She rarely spoke to me again.

Hehe, I'd be careful with the word "alien". I know it can mean a foreigner, but it has space connotations - I am currently imagining a green being with three eyes and two sucker-tentacles on its head as ears!
And Sting, of course, like dear Quentin, was a legal alien in Noo Yawk.

Noo Yawk sounds like Cockney to me - it's how my dad would say it!
Anyway, Americans and Australians *do* speak a different language.

Different to what? And what about normal English people - do they speak a different language too?
Cheers,
Matt
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For me, to be called a foreigner, one has to ... etc. as foreigners. What are others' views on this subject?

I don't use the word that way; I know that a citizen of a foreign country is a foreigner. But ... exceptionalist. I feel that, spiritually, we were all descended from yeomen instead of peasants. Maybe there's actually something to it.

Yeah - I agree. Americans aren't really foreigners to me. They're just another type of English people, really.
Cheers,
Matt
Oy! (It's "than" "different THAN".)

Ross Howard
Yeah, I know. My son has that label. He was born in Europe where I happened to be working, and ... So there is that label for him to deal with. And it will never go away. It's sad. I guess.

Chin up, old chap. The label might not be with him for ever. Many sensitive and enlightened people are working hard to eradicate the word 'foreign' from the English language and they have some very powerful backers - Ted Turner, the Salvation Army, the world of wrestling - so it can't be too long before they get their way.
http://www.infonation.org.uk/pdf/other/Beyond%20Babel%20Politics%20Prog%2
03.pdf

Ted Turner banned the use of the word foreign in scripts or in conversations, you know, 10, 15 years ago. He did it not because he is, you know, just passionate about the world but because he believes…. “What does “foreign” mean? Foreign means alien.” We don't broadcast to aliens, well, not just yet. We broadcast to people around the world and the simple, if you like, reconstruction of the English language in that sense publicly to his staff… Senior managers like me get fined $100 for every time we use the word foreign. So this interview has now cost me $200.
http://www1.salvationarmy.org/www ind.nsf/0/EDC67745282D885A80256C09004E8 C4A?openDocument
The word 'foreign' was eventually outlawed from Salvation Army terminology and was supplanted by the word 'overseas'. It was during the First World War that General Bramwell Booth made the historic statement, ‘Every land is my Fatherland since every land is my Father's land’.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199900/cmhansrd/vo 000125/debtext/00125110.htm
Mr. Bermingham: On a point of order, Mr. Martin. I ask the Minister to withdraw the word "foreign". We are all part of Europe.
http://www.oup.com/pdf/elt/catalogue/0-19-442164-3-a.pdf

Moving now to 'EFL', the term does not express the principal purpose of learning English today, and unless it is genuinely used to describe native/non-native interaction as the pedagogical aim, the word 'foreign' has a number of negative implications. According to Gika, 'we teach this language to help people communicate easily, talk to each other without linguistic and even cultural barriers, understand each other better ... to bring people closer', and the term 'foreign' is unhelpful in this context. She asks, 'how foreign can it be internationally, since people all over the world communicate in English?'

One possible alternative to EFL simply involves reversing the second and third letters to arrive at ELF, or 'English as a Lingua Franca'. This term would have a number of immediate advantages: ELF emphasizes the role of English in communication between speakers from different L1s, i.e. the primary reason for learning English today; it suggests the idea of community as opposed to alienness; it emphasizes that people have something in common rather than their differences; it implies that 'mixing' languages is acceptable (which was, in fact, what the original lingua francas did) and thus that there is nothing inherently wrong in retaining certain characteristics of the L1, such as accent; finally, the Latin name symbolically removes the ownership of English from the Anglos both to no one and, in effect, to everyone.
http://www.sol.co.uk/m/macfarlane/0101poems/010123.htm

ETHICAL EDUCATION (a poem - much snipped and with line breaks removed for compactitude )
Robin Cook is one UNETHICAL We should DEPOSE him right away, Our basic reason being that he pursues the wrong motivation way. Just think about the meaning of the word "foreign" here right now. It is WRONG to call some persons FOREIGNERS without a moral row. Nobody on the Earth today should be OUTWITH our humankind, Yet that is what the little runt called Cook asserts is in his mind. If Cook was really truthful he would recant immediately, And accept that there are NO FOREIGNERS on Earth that we can see.

It is ETHICAL (for GOODNESS SAKE!) to love our neighbours on the Earth. Whether they are Anglos or Irish or Jewish or any other effete birth. I am a reformed teacher and renounced international rule, And I failed to be promoted (with more pay) because of Dundee’s racist rule. Headmasters have well-known to be the SCUM in our profession,

Edward Graham Macfarlane, Global Poet Laureate
http://www.lse.ac.uk/Depts/intrel/pdfs/CJHwhatistobedone.pdf

But even if we were to displace terms like ‘foreign policy’ and ‘foreigner’ – and political correctness has moved in that direction – we should simply have to find new labels for the same reality, just as firms have ‘international departments’ or the EU has ‘external economic relations’.

http://www.total-wrestling.co.uk/information/terms.shtml

Foreign Object: An object that is illegal to the match, such as a chair, brass knuckles, garbage can, etc. In the late 1980's, Ted Turner had a policy on his news networks that all commentators were to not use the word "foreign", but instead use the word "international". Wrestling announcers on TBS picked up on this, and a foreign object is still occasionally, jokingly called the "international object".

Mickwick
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No you wouldn't. Not if he were someone not known to you personally in some aspect.

Yes I wouldn, honestly. I consider any immigrant in the US to be an American by default. The only thing ... to go back to the mother country (or to some third country). I recognize that you have a different view.

Not just Tony. I find your view bizarre.
My daughter was brought to the US as an eight-month-old baby, and is about as Americanised as can be - she has no trace of foreign accent; she went to American schools; she knows the words of "The Star-Spangled Banner" better than "God Save the Queen"; but she is not an American. I don't think so, she doesn't think so, and, probably more to the point, the US government doesn't think so.
As part of her studies, she went recently on a field trip to the Pentagon. The trip had to be delayed because it was necessary to get security clearance for her; the tour was delayed because she was asked more questions by security people at the entrance than anyone else on her tour (and more than the group of Chinese military in the tour ahead of her, which irritated her).
"Americanized" and "American" are two entirely different words. They don't ... cases, they don't even mean close to the same thing.

I agree. That's why an illegal alien who's been in the US for a few weeks can be an American to me, even though it's not likely such a person would be Americanized.

So what does it mean to you, to be an American? It obviously includes the risk of deportation; detention without access to legal advice; taxation without representation (although you only have to move to DC for that, if the licence plates are anything to go by); and spending hours in line outside the immigration office.
That last one always makes me think about going home.

Fran
As part of her studies, she went recently on a field trip to the Pentagon. The trip had to be ... on her tour (and more than the group of Chinese military in the tour ahead of her, which irritated her).

That's perfectly reasonable. It's far easier to conceal a shoe bomb in a pair of Doc Martens than it is in a pair of black cloth slippers.

Besides, when you grill the English you get scrutable replies.
Yes I wouldn, honestly. I consider any immigrant in the ... third country). I recognize that you have a different view.

Not just Tony. I find your view bizarre.

Well of course you would; you're British (NTTAWWT!). I don't think my view is a typical American view either, AFAIK, but I believe it isn't unique to me, and may be common among people who live or grow up in communities with large populations of immigrants and in which those immigrants are a sort of important part of the cultural fabric of said communities. Coop of course doesn't live in, and didn't grow up in, such a place. NWWT.
My daughter was brought to the US as an eight-month-old baby, and is about as Americanised as can be - ... I don't think so, she doesn't think so, and, probably more to the point, the US government doesn't think so.

I don't see how the US government has any say in the matter. That's AUE Error Number One: the notion that you can look to government actio or government decrees to determine what is correct in language usage. The US government gets to say who's a citizen; and they can make mistakes too.
As part of her studies, she went recently on a field trip to the Pentagon. The trip had to be ... on her tour (and more than the group of Chinese military in the tour ahead of her, which irritated her).

See above. True, experiences like that can affect how someone's viewed and how someone views himself or herself.
I agree. That's why an illegal alien who's been in ... though it's not likely such a person would be Americanized.

So what does it mean to you, to be an American? It obviously includes the risk of deportation; detention without ... for that, if the licence plates are anything to go by); and spending hours in line outside the immigration office.

You're again committing AUE Error Number One. Being American is *extra-governmental*. It's exactly like the difference between "America" and "the United States". "America" is the poetic, romantic, emotional name of the country. The country's name, as opposed to the nation-state's name. "America" would exist if you got rid of the US government tomorrow. The United States might not exist, however.
I would think this is rather like the European notion of bogus nationhood, except that in my view of nationhood, it includes immigrants; indeed, immigrants are at the heart of my conception of American nationhood. Now I'm getting all verklempt with all this patriotic talk. Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic: Tony Cooper is neither tony nor a cooper. Discuss.
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As part of her studies, she went recently on a ... military in the tour ahead of her, which irritated her).

That's perfectly reasonable. It's far easier to conceal a shoe bomb in a pair of Doc Martens than it is in a pair of black cloth slippers.

She left her Doc Martens at home, and seems to wear flip-flops all the time these days (despite owning enough pairs of shoes to run a close second to Imelda). Interestingly, she was asked to take off her shoes once, at an airport in California, a couple of weeks before the shoe-bomb incident.
Fran
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