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That one's new to me thanks. Closely related to "pilgrim," I see, the idea of wandering. From Latin per through + agr-, ager land.

Speaking of pilgrims (and to generate some Thanksgiving table-talk), doesn't pilgrim imply some sort or wandering? So the Mayflower Pilgrims were misnamed because all they did was sail from point A to point B?
That one's new to me thanks. Closely related to "pilgrim," I see, the idea of wandering. From Latin per through + agr-, ager land.

Speaking of pilgrims (and to generate some Thanksgiving table-talk), doesn't pilgrim imply some sort or wandering? So the Mayflower Pilgrims were misnamed because all they did was sail from point A to point B?

Isn't pilgrimaging rather about lots of people from lots of different point As all converging on point B?
Think Mecca, Lourdes, Santiago de Compostela, etc.

(And how would a wandering pilgrim make "progress", if not towards his destination? Even accepting the old usage of "progress" for monarchs moving from place to place to empty their barons' larders, there was some sort of itinerary, surely.)

Ross Howard
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That one's new to me thanks. Closely related to "pilgrim," I see, the idea of wandering. From Latin per through + agr-, ager land.

Speaking of pilgrims (and to generate some Thanksgiving table-talk), doesn't pilgrim imply some sort or wandering? So the Mayflower Pilgrims were misnamed because all they did was sail from point A to point B?

Not quite that easy, in those days. Point B wasn't even the colony where they intended to go. They had expected Virginia.
There was a point C in there, too some of them had tried living for a decade or so in Holland, mostly in Leiden. The usual explanation for why they left was, they didn't like to see their children growing up to be Dutch.
I forget when the name "Pilgrim" was applied to them it wasn't contemporary, of course, but I think a century later?

Best Donna Richoux
Isn't pilgrimaging rather about lots of people from lots of different point As all converging on point B? Think Mecca, Lourdes, Santiago de Compostela, etc.

And Canterbury.
David
Isn't pilgrimaging rather about lots of people from lots of different point As all converging on point B? Think Mecca, ... "progress" for monarchs moving from place to place to empty their barons' larders, there was some sort of itinerary, surely.)

I was thinking of a pilgrim making a grand tour of holy sites, say around Jerusalem, or in the north of Spain, collecting a bag of relics to wow the homefolks.
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On 02 Nov 2003, Matt Davis wrote

For me, to be called a foreigner, one has to ... etc. as foreigners. What are others' views on this subject?

For me, someone who originally came from another country is a foreigner, full stop. Language doesn't enter into the equation.

I agree, although I seem to make an exception for people who came here at a sufficiently young age. A good friend of mine, now in his late thirties, was born in Hong Kong and came to the US at the age of one or two. He doesn't seem to count as a "foreigner" at all. I think you have to have previously been someplace long enough to have picked up some of the culture in order to count.

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On 02 Nov 2003, Matt Davis wrote For me, someone ... a foreigner, full stop. Language doesn't enter into the equation.

I agree, although I seem to make an exception for people who came here at a sufficiently young age. A ... have to have previously been someplace long enough to have picked up some of the culture in order to count.

I agree, but I'm not sure if it's a matter of being old enough to have picked up the culture: I'd probably modify my definition around the degree to which the person involved had decided to make the move.

For my "full stop" definition I was thinking of adults, and adults who change countries are definitely "foreigners". I'm not sure about kids who had no choice in the matter, regardless of their age or cultural foreign-ness: somehow, they're less fully "foreign" than their parents to me.

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)
Isn't pilgrimaging rather about lots of people from lots of ... their barons' larders, there was some sort of itinerary, surely.)

I was thinking of a pilgrim making a grand tour of holy sites, say around Jerusalem, or in the north of Spain, collecting a bag of relics to wow the homefolks.

"Femurs of St. Luke the Apostle: Buy Two, Get One Free!"

Ross Howard
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Speaking of pilgrims (and to generate some Thanksgiving table-talk), doesn't ... they did was sail from point A to point B?

Not quite that easy, in those days. Point B wasn't even the colony where they intended to go. They had ... when the name "Pilgrim" was applied to them it wasn't contemporary, of course, but I think a century later?

They were originally, to themselves, 'Saints'
OED says Governor Bradford invoked Hebrews 11:13 et seq referring to his little band :
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Pilgrims don't have to be wanderers. In Chaucer's day they went directly from the pub to Canterbury Cathedral - do not pass Go, do not collect 200 groats. - 'Than longen folk to gon on pilgrimages.'

And pilgrimages to the Holy Land led to the original Desert Storm.

In fact, I can't think of any context where 'pilgrim' or 'pilgrimage' involves any sense of wandering - all the examples that occur to me relate to pretty straight line transactions.

John Dean
Oxford
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