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Oy!

Seconded. PBS is, in its own words, "a private, non-profit media enterprise owned and operated by the nation's 349 public ... television stations that are owned by some state entity. However, I would assume that most PBS stations are not state-owned.

And even the stations that are allegedly privately owned get a substantial portion of their budget from Government sources.

So there's "private" and then there's 'private' and then there's thinly disguised "controlled to some extent by the government"

And as to be "noncommercial"... An evening's observation will rapidly demonstrate that the "sponsors" get to show and extoll their wares in return for "sponsorship".
One of the most egregious examples of truthspeak that is evident in our society today.
Jitze
Interesting. I took Roland Hutchinson's "Oy!" to be a comment on my having used "Public Broadcasting System" instead of "Public Broadcasting Service."

Since the others missed it, I'll Oy! the comma inside the ending quote mark. This has happened here a couple of times recently.

You mean the commas in the following? "('Public Broadcasting System,' a government-owned network)" and "The subject discussed in the first chapter, 'The Language Wars,' is prescriptivism versus descriptivism." Those represent standard American punctuation practice, no more "Oy!"able than is "in hospital" when used by a speaker of British English.

A punctuation error which I did make was the quotation mark preceding the title of the book, since the name of the book is set off with asterisks rather than, as in the case of the chapter title, quotation marks.

(The use of asterisks rather than either slashes or underscores is deliberate on my part: Using underscores complicates finding past material in Google Groups archive and slashes are used in these groups for pronunciations represented in ASCII IPA.)

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
Interesting. I took Roland Hutchinson's "Oy!" to be a comment on my having used "Public Broadcasting System" instead of "Public Broadcasting Service."

Since the others missed it, I'll Oy! the comma inside the ending quote mark. This has happened here a couple of times recently.

Pondial differences in standard styles aren't legitimately oy-able.

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)
Interesting. I took Roland Hutchinson's "Oy!" to be a comment on my having used "Public Broadcasting System" instead of "Public Broadcasting Service."

Since the others missed it, I'll Oy! the comma inside the ending quote mark. This has happened here a couple of times recently.

I'd Oy! "comma", if I oyed.

Charles Riggs
They are no accented letters in my email address
Seconded. PBS is, in its own words, "a private, non-profit ... I would assume that most PBS stations are not state-owned.

And even the stations that are allegedly privately owned get a substantial portion of their budget from Government sources. So there's "private" and then there's 'private' and then there's thinly disguised "controlled to some extent by the government"

Whoa, do you actually watch PBS? Documentary series like Frontline take a far more antagonistic stance towards the government than anything you will see on the "private" (or should that be 'private'?) stations, with the possible exception of C-SPAN. PBS executives are constantly being summoned before Congressional committees to explain themselves.
And as to be "noncommercial"... An evening's observation will rapidly demonstrate that the "sponsors" get to show and extoll their wares in return for "sponsorship".

That's true, but only for about 15 seconds each. Nothing like the relentless commercial interruptions we're subjected to on other stations.
One of the most egregious examples of truthspeak that is evident in our society today.

I thought "truthspeak" was a good thing. Do you mean "newspeak?"
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"Raymond S. Wise" > You mean the commas in the following? "('Public Broadcasting System,' a
government-owned network)" and "The subject discussed in the first chapter, 'The Language Wars,' is prescriptivism versus descriptivism." Those represent standard American punctuation practice, no more "Oy!"able than is "in hospital" when used by a speaker of British English.

" In hospital "sounds strange to American ears but we say "in jail" and "in prison".
While I haven't yet gotten used to it no longer being "The" Ukraine I always thought them having a the the was odd.
However,

And even the stations that are allegedly privately owned get ... there's thinly disguised "controlled to some extent by the government"

Whoa, do you actually watch PBS? Documentary series like Frontline take a far more antagonistic stance towards the government than ... 'private'?) stations, with the possible exception of C-SPAN. PBS executives are constantly being summoned before Congressional committees to explain themselves.

Oh indeed - and a fine job they do when they do it - but my point is that they are limited in doing as much as they would like to do. Because their funding is to a large extent "controlled" - the spigot is screwed down by the politicos and not-so-subtle threats of even further clamp-down are voiced annually at budget time.
And as to be "noncommercial"... An evening's observation will rapidly demonstrate that the "sponsors" get to show and extoll their wares in return for "sponsorship".

That's true, but only for about 15 seconds each. Nothing like the relentless commercial interruptions we're subjected to on other stations.

Not so anent the interruptions...
It irritates the hell out of me that during their frequent fundraising seasons they devote just as much air-time to non-program material ("sponsors messages" and harangues for "membership donations" ) as the worst of the "commercial" stations.
I timed the program-content versus non-program-content of our local PBS station over two evenings last year - and they were slightly worse than 2 major networks, only marginally better than another network and right in there with 2 others channels that I measured.
So I am being cajoled ad nauseam to pay for a product that is "non-commercial" when its content ratio is essentially the same as for stations that I get for free (i.e. I pay for when I buy advertised goods) but whose repetition factor would put any other outfit out of business.
I have been fed regurgitated Mrs Bucket, Mrs Slocombe, et al now for too many years to count with only occasionaly a dollop of new stuff in the line-up to make it even worth bothering with.

If I never see that long-haired wanna-be-Adonis Greek piano- player or that Belgian violin-playing wanna-be-Strauss again that will be too much. When did you last see a new Masterpiece Theatre, or even one that had only been shown 2 or 3 times?
One of the most egregious examples of truthspeak that is evident in our society today.

I thought "truthspeak" was a good thing. Do you mean "newspeak?"

Yup I guess so - Orwell 1984 etc.
Jitze
However, Whoa, do you actually watch PBS? Documentary series like ... executives are constantly beingsummoned before Congressional committees to explain themselves.

Oh indeed - and a fine job they do when they do it - but my point is that they ... spigot is screwed down by the politicos and not-so-subtle threats of even further clamp-down are voiced annually at budget time.

It doesn't automatically follow that the source of their funding determines the content of their programming. It doesn't with the BBC, for example (AFAIK).
That's true, but only for about 15 seconds each. Nothing like therelentless commercial interruptions we're subjected to on other stations.

Not so anent the interruptions... It irritates the hell out of me that during their frequent fundraising seasons they devote ... did you last see a new Masterpiece Theatre, or even one that had only been shown 2 or 3 times?

Yes, the "pledge weeks" are dreadful, I never watch them myself. And to be fair, some of the Saturday half-hour shows like Julia Child and This Old House seemed to be structured to provide 23 minutes of actual content, so they can be sold to HGTV or whoever when their PBS run is over. So PBS isn't truly commercial-free. Still a lot better than the competition though, without even getting into the (generally) superior content.
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"Raymond S. Wise" > You mean the commas in the following? "('Public Broadcasting System,' a

government-owned network)" and "The subject discussed in the first chapter, ... "in hospital" when used by a speaker of British English.

" In hospital "sounds strange to American ears but we say "in jail" and "in prison". While I haven't yet gotten used to it no longer being "The" Ukraine I always thought them having a the the was odd.

I think that's because "ukraine" means "border" or "borderlands" in Russian. Thus "the ukraine" was "the borderlands (of Russia)". Of course Russian doesn't have articles so the "the" isn't directly from Russian. Anyway, as I understand it the switch from "The Ukraine" to "Ukraine" is intended to signify that Ukraine is its own, fully autonomous nation now, not an appendage of, or defined in relation to Russia. In other words, exactly the issue in the recent Ukranian presidential election.
-Peter

Peter Seibel (Email Removed)

Lisp is the red pill. John Fraser, comp.lang.lisp
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