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I see from a reply you made to Donna that you are from the Northwest That's Northwest as in the Pacific ... ever have allowed me to get by with a sentence such as "Last night I watched 'Mask', a great film."

Apparently, mine did.
Thanks to all of you who furthered my education in this matter and apologies to those offended. I don't recall ever seeing this form in print and it still seems foreign to me but I abide by the wisdom of the group (plus I snuck a look myself). (= AmE .")

As penance, I'll keep my eyes open for examples in my daily reading.

dg (domain=ccwebster)
I'm the Northwest Don, BTW.

Thanks. I like being able to place people mentally around the globe and two different Don G's confuse me. I ... also tree-covered... Could I interest you in taking on another identifying name tag, a sort of "Calvin the Bold" epithet?

"Calvin the Bold," eh? It has a certain ring. But I prefer the tiger, Hobbes.

dg (domain=ccwebster)
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
...
} You are wrong. Period. That you might not follow the standard practice } does not give you licence to decree that long-established standard } practice is not standard practice. Spend a little of the copious time } you spend with your computer to look up what you should have learned } before you were twelve.That's like saying you can't fight city hall. Sure you can. And you can win. I helped get an Army Regulation changed. I helped get a Maryland state law changed. And I've voided that part of the punctuation law (regarding insertion of spurious punctuation into quoted text) a long time ago. You (from whom there is much to be learned) are just out of touch. Don Groves is basically right and Bob Cunningham (Hi, Sparky!) is basically right on the subject.

The Chicago Manual of Style (as I recall it, reminded from time to time by the self-same Bob Cunningham) practically apologizes for it. I do understand the position of the likes of the late great Truly Donovan, who has a financial interest in conforming. And I do understand the position of people like Skitt and Dr. Reinhold (Rey) Aman that conformity flying in the face of reason has a beauty all its own (if that indeed is the thrust of their position).

But I've been to Brooklyn (my grandfather was born there) and I've been to Texas (my son was married there and my father's tombstone is there), and I just don't have to insert spurious punctuation into quoted text anymore (any more than George H. W. Bush has to eat broccoli).

I'm not unreasonable, though, and I will from time to time demote a period (= BrE "full stop) within a quote to a comma (= BrE "inverted apostrophe"), should the quote need further comment from me.

R. J. Valentine
... } You are wrong. Period. That you might not follow the standard practice } does not give you licence ... I've voided that part of the punctuation law (regarding insertion of spurious punctuation into quoted text) a long time ago.

You haven't succeeded, as far as I know, in getting it prescriptively declared that the old way is wrong.
I'm not unreasonable, though, and I will from time to time demote a period (= BrE "full stop) within a quote to a comma (= BrE "inverted apostrophe"), should the quote need further comment from me.

You should be saying "quote text blah blah.", with the period inside and the comma outside, if you're really following your own rule.
I see from a reply you made to Donna that you are from theNorthwest That's Northwest as in the Pacific Northwest ... teachers would ever have allowed meto get by with a sentence such as "Last night I watched 'Mask', a greatfilm."

Hi, Ray.
I was taught the "British system", I guess, when I was learning advanced punctuation back in the '50s (in Wisconsin public school system). We weren't told that it was the "British system", however. We were told to put the commas where they fit in the sentence as a whole, and put the quotation marks around the selections that are being cited. If the comma or period isn't part of the quotation, then it doesn't belong inside the quotation marks. Then, we were allowed to use our own judgement when the question became iffy. We were not told that we were writing for publication by the University of Chicago Press.
As for Donna's citation, I looked at it. Besides using AUE as the expert source in this punctuation matter, the citation seems to refer to Mark Israel's work. There is a remark stating that the variation in the US style may have something to do with a typography problem.

That leads me right back to the need to restate the usage of the so-called "American Style (or practice)", which some find is based on a particular publisher's style manual. If people are not going to submit their writing to a publisher, they shouldn't be held to this particular style and if they do intend the particular writing in question to be published, they need to find out from the intended publisher what, exactly, that publisher wishes to use in the way of style.

Pat
durkinpa at msn.com
Wisconsin
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
I see from a reply you made to Donna that ... such as "Last night I watched 'Mask', a great film."

Hi, Ray. I was taught the "British system", I guess, when I was learning advanced punctuation back in the '50s ... need to find out from the intended publisher what, exactly, that publisher wishes to use in the way of style.[/nq]You are certainly right that if you intend to submit your writing to a particular publication, you should follow the style preferred by that publication. You are very wrong, however, if you believe that the American style is something dictated by *The Chicago Manual of Style.* In this case, the Manual is following prevailing American style and that was why it was mentioned in this thread, as a typical example of usage advice given in America on the question of where to put commas and periods related to closing question marks.

I have previously pointed out in one of these newsgroups that *The Century Dictionary,* an American dictionary of 1895, which can be seen in facsimile form (in DjVu or JPEG images) at www.century-dictionary.com , using the American style. I'm sure an examination of other documents and books from the time prior to the first publication of the Chicago Manual will show that the American style was in use, and the authors of the style were no more innovative in suggesting that American authors follow it than if they were to indicate that in America, the spellings "favorite" and "traveled" are preferred to "favourite" and "travelled."
If you were not taught the American style in an American school, I am quite surprised and, frankly, think that your teachers did you a disservice. However that they did not follow standard American usage does not affect its status as standard American usage from which they were diverging.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
*Do You Speak American?*I put in the "?" for you. :-)

I was most impressed with the recordings of black
English from about 1940 (though characterizing these recordings as "slave" was a little dishonest).
They spoke better English than the Dean of American- American Affairs at UVA does. Sad, so sad.
GFH
Do You Speak American is a program which will appear on the UStelevision network PBS ("Public Broadcasting System," a government-owned ... seen as "slang" or "informal." (end quote) Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

This to aue only:
It was a disappointment. The first hour wasn't too bad he did talk about language and dialect and the middle hour was OK. But the last bit seemed to drift off the edge of the continent.
Cheers, Sage
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Hi, Ray. I was taught the "British system", I guess, ... that publisher wishes to use in the way of style.

You are certainly right that if you intend to submit your writing to a particular publication, you should follow the ... they did not follow standard American usage does not affectits status as standard American usage from which they were diverging.

Ray, I do recall the long list of examples you copied from the Century Dictionary. Mostly, ibids, if I recall correctly. I thought that I expressed my gratitude for your work at that time, and perhaps did not state clearly that your examples were all examples of research submitted for publication. Now, I suppose it would be difficult to find anything as informal as private letters printed as facsimiles. That would be the kind of indication of usage that is not submitted for publication by the writers. Informal writing, such as one finds in such places as in this newsgroup.
I do have my standards, and I know that I err frequently in my punctuation, as well as word choice. But what I really would like to see is that when people ask about punctuation rules, the responder will clarify the question as to the purpose to which the rules are to be put, or will mention that the styles suggested are for publication.
Oh, yes, I see that you don't think the rules are to be limited to publication. You mention standards again and again. But what exemplars of informal writing by Faulkner, Fitzgerald, Hemingway can you provide? That would be, of course, unedited and not intended for publication? What rules did these leaders of US style in writing follow? And when(at what stage of your schooling) did you learn the rules that you claim to be standards? How closely do you hew to the standards in your informal writing?

I don't feel I was badly served by my teachers in grade school or in high school.
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