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Hi, again.

Can
We had hoped that he would stay longer.

be rephrased as
We hoped that he would have stayed longer.
?
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Hello again
We had hoped that he would stay longer

I don't know why past perfect is used here. Is it an independent sentence? Or is it a statement embedded in any clause? If it stands by itself, I take this 'would' is a modal expressing the volition of the subject. One cannot know whether he actually stay longer or not.
We hoped that he would have stayed longer.

This 'would have pp.' clearly means that in fact he did not stayed longer.

This is my humble opinion and I might be wrong. You can wait better and correct answers from moderators.

paco
Hi Komountain,

Both sentences are incorrect. There are 2 actions (or lack of action) in the past : You hoping and him staying. Since "you hoping" happened first, it must be put in Past Perfect tense. And since "him staying" were just a wishful thinking and didn't really happened, it must be in WOULD HAVE PP.

We had hoped that he would have stayed longer.
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Hmm. I have a slightly different view (which may be wrong):

1. We had hoped that he would stay longer.

That sounds fine to me. It means:

2. We had hoped that he would stay longer (but he didn't).

So 'hope' is in the past perfect because the hoping preceded the visit.

3. We hoped that he would have stayed longer.

I would change this to:

4. We hoped he would stay longer.

Here, the period of hope is not defined: it could have occurred before or during the visit (or both).

MrP
I would not rephrase it like that, no.

The subordinate clause of the second sentence "he would have stayed longer" suggests something counterfactual or something dependent upon an unstated condition, perhaps, "if we had insisted", thus:

We hoped that he would have stayed longer (if we had insisted).

This implied counterfactual, to my ear, seems to conflict with the idea of hoping. Can we really say that we hoped for what we already know did not happen? Well, I guess maybe we can, but it still seems strange to me.

Maybe others will have a better explanation.

CJ
Thank you all.

Please allow me to add a little twist to my original question.

Would you rephrase
He expected to pass the test, but he didn't.

as
1.
He had expected to pass the test.

or as
2.
He expected to have passed the test.
?
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hope, expect, intend, wish, want...
These verbs have one thing in common, paco. They all involve future events; in other words, they are the verbs used to describe future events. So, I've called them 'future verbs' for the sake of convenience.

If we want to describe a past event that we hoped for but did not happen, we likely adopt or . As you see here, had p.p. is a requirement when describing a hoped-for but unachieved past event.

I wondered if [simple past verb that S would have p.p.] pattern was possible. As Mr Pedantic and CalifJim advise, it is not a good alternative to [had p.p. that S would V].
Hello KoMt

Thank you for pointing my mistake. Yes I was definitely wrong. The mistake came actually from the fact I knew nothing about the use of the past perfect for unsatisfied desires. I appreciate that you gave me a chance to know it. The following is my thought on the reason why the past perfect is used to express unsatisfied desires;
I hope he will pass the exam. will : future WILL in the present tense.
I hoped he would pass the exam. would : future WILL in the past tense.
I had hoped he would pass the exam (until the time I knew he had failed to do it)
At the moment when one knows the desire is to be unsatisfied, the action of desiring shall cease. This would be why the past perfect tense is used for unsatisfied desires. This is merely my guess work, anyway.

paco
the past perfect tense is used for unsatisfied desires

It seems, suddenly, a rather desolate tense.

1. He had expected to pass the test.

This we say of him, as he stares disconsolately at the email from his tutor; or, as he stares jubilantly at a different email:

1a. He had expected to pass the test – and he did!

2. He expected to have passed the test.

I would usually use the perfect infinitive where an expectation or desire was not realized (except after 'said/known/believed/supposed', where it simply denotes past time).

In this example, something feels a little strange. But I can't quite put my finger on it.

MrP
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