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I was one of the readers who emailed to point ... author of the original piece (to which I must respond).

I must say the Guardian people are buggers for what is known leftpondially as 'nicing you to death'. I wrote ... in which he said they had decided to cap it up. Though I note the on-line guide isn't amended yet.

This is, of course, the USP of the Guardian. They know their readership so well.

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Did you see the bit in the Guardian's Corrections and Clarifications column on Todmorden? http://www.guardian.co.uk/corrections/story/0,3604,1051674,00.html

I was one of the readers who emailed to point out that while Tod is, postally, in Lancs, it is ... one of the editors and got an apology from the author of the original piece (to which I must respond).

You may have had an apology from the author, but the article you link to...
"We placed Todmorden in Lancashire, in our report on urban landscape painter William Turner (Renewed - Manchester's hidden old master, page 28, September 15). Some readers complained that Todmorden is in West Yorkshire and they are both right and wrong. The Post Office gives the town an Oldham postcode - Lancashire OL14 - while at the same time it is part of Calderdale metropolitan borough council, based in Halifax, W Yorks. Such identity problems arise in many parts of the country." ...is hardly an apology from the editor. In fact it's rather cheeky. The people who complained are not "both right and wrong", they are right.
Adrian
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
I was one of the readers who emailed to point ... author of the original piece (to which I must respond).

You may have had an apology from the author, but the article you link to... "We placed Todmorden in Lancashire, ... the editor. In fact it's rather cheeky. The people who complained are not "both right and wrong", they are right.

Moreover, there is no such thing as a "Lancashire OL14" postcode. County names are not part of postcodes; nor are they, properly, part of postal addresses at all. The Post Office dropped them, very sensibly, when the government started mucking around with the boundaries these many years ago.
The Guardian would have been right up to 1889, though. The old county boundary ran through the middle of Todmorden, which is why it ended up with two police stations. The Town Hall is built over the river which formed the boundary, with part in each county.

Don Aitken
Or just wait a little and I'll tell you which town was named for the wool trade. You might be able to guess. The rest were named for guys with names like Wulfa and Wulfred. And one for wolves.

I love the fact that Devon boasts not one but two "Woolfardisworthys".

From "The Reader's Digest Complete Atlas of the British Isles" (the best £3 I've ever spent):
name: derivation
Wool: springs
Woolacombe: river valley
Woolaston: Wulflaf's farm
Woolavington: a farm of Wiglac's people
Woolbeding: Wulfbeald's people
Wooler: bank of the stream
Woolfardisworthy (x2): Wulfheard's homestead
Woolfords Cottages: -
Woolhope: valley belonging to Wulfgifu
Woolland: meadow land
Woolley (x2): wolves' wood
Woolmer Green: -
Woolpit: pit for trapping wolves
Woolscott: -
Woolstaston: Wulfstan's farm
Woolston 1: Wulf's farm
Woolston 2: -
Woolstone 1: Wulfsige's farm
Woolstone 2: -
Wooltack Point: -
Woolton: -
Woolverstone: Wulfhere's farm
Woolverton: farm of Wulfhere's people
Woolwich: wool farm
Adrian
Nonsense. Do a search (on Google or your memory) on "he's came", "he's went", etc. and you'll find plenty of examples.

But but but ... that wasn't the question. See subject line - it says 'have came'.

Pedantic and unhelpful.
. That's what one guy in Kentucky says. Do you think they all do?

No idea. I was replying about Britain.
But I see no evidence of concentration Oop North.

I'm sure you listen to the radio. Perhaps you even watch TV. In which case(s) I can't see how you can make such a ridiculous claim. Open your ears.
Adrian
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Or just wait a little and I'll tell you which ... with names like Wulfa and Wulfred. And one for wolves.

I love the fact that Devon boasts not one but two "Woolfardisworthys". From "The Reader's Digest Complete Atlas of the ... Woolstone 2: - Wooltack Point: - Woolton: - Woolverstone: Wulfhere's farm Woolverton: farm of Wulfhere's people Woolwich: wool farm Adrian

Wolstanton, near Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire, is named after St. Wulstan. No, I never found out who he was either but the local Catholic church is named after him.
Cheers, Sage
Moreover, there is no such thing as a "Lancashire OL14" postcode. County names are not part of postcodes; nor are ... The Town Hall is built over the river which formed the boundary, with part in each county. Don Aitken

Did you know that Post Office is a trademarked name and as such should bear TM in superscipt? Neither did I until dealing with Longbenton, the other day.
Cheers, Sage
But but but ... that wasn't the question. See subject line - it says 'have came'.

Pedantic and unhelpful.

'Pedantic and unhelpful' to refer you back to the original question? I don't know whether to claim that as my new sig or refer it to ahbou. So you think offering your subjective opinion on the use of 'he's came' is an appropriate reply to a question on 'have came' and anyone who thinks otherwise is an unhelpful pedant?
No idea. I was replying about Britain.

I know what you were doing. I was asking a different question. Though I know realise that 'No idea' is likely to be your answer to most questions. If you're being honest, that is.
But I see no evidence of concentration Oop North.

I'm sure you listen to the radio.

You're sure? How foolish. I've listened to about twenty minutes of Radio in the last 5 years.
Perhaps you even watch TV.

Perhaps I do
In which case(s) I can't see how you can make such a ridiculous claim.

What claim is ridiculous? 'But I see no evidence of concentration Oop North'? I lived there for several decades and never heard it. I read assiduously and have never read it. If you disagree, produce your evidence. The claim that I have never heard a Scot talk like that? I haven't. Why don't you produce a Scot who will cheerfully (or miserably) admit to using it all his/her life? Produce several. Quote an authoritative work on language usage North of the Border
Remember, BTW, I am talking about the subject of the original question 'have came'. If you want to invent other usages and pretend they've been passed down in your family for generations, kindly do it elsewhere.
Open your ears.

Oooh! Aren't you the bold one! I have a better idea - produce some evidence for your assertions. I'd produce evidence for mine but you know how hard it is to prove a negative. If you think the usage exists - give us the cites. But beware of any lofty statements on the lines of 'Google shows 38 gazillion hits' because there are a lot of illiterates out there who seem to have got foxed with the idea that if 'They come to see me yesterday' is non-standard, then 'They have come to see me' must be inferior to 'they have came'.

John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply
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Or just wait a little and I'll tell you which ... with names like Wulfa and Wulfred. And one for wolves.

I love the fact that Devon boasts not one but two "Woolfardisworthys". From "The Reader's Digest Complete Atlas of the British Isles" (the best £3 I've ever spent): name: derivation

The ODEP-N Has more detail,such as:
Wool: springs

Welle 1086 (Domesday Book). Place at the spring or springs. OE wiella.

I can't copy out all of them, but I'll add a bit to what you have:
Woolacombe: river valley Woolaston: Wulflaf's farm Woolavington: a farm of Wiglac's people Woolbeding: Wulfbeald's people Wooler: bank of the stream ... belonging to Wulfgifu Woolland: meadow land Woolley (x2): wolves' wood Woolmer Green: - Woolpit: pit for trapping wolves Woolscott: -

Prob, cottage of a man called Wulfsige.
Woolstaston: Wulfstan's farm Woolston 1: Wulf's farm Woolston 2: - Woolstone 1: Wulfsige's farm Woolstone 2: -

Identical meaning
Wooltack Point: - Woolton: -

Farmstead of a man called Wulfa
Woolverstone: Wulfhere's farm Woolverton: farm of Wulfhere's people Woolwich: wool farm

"Port from which wool is shipped."
Your reference and mine disagree as to the meaning of the last, but they do agree that it's the only one that refers to actual wool.

Hmmm... I know that the Flemish paid the English to supply fleece as raw material for the booming processed-wool business of Flanders. Before then, there would have no place to ship wool *to*. This trade brought England its first prosperity (after Roman times). But that was more like 1200-1300; surely it couldn't have been happening as early as 918 yet that's when ODEP-N has a reference for Woolwich being called "Uuluuich" (which is not as different as it looks from Wulwich think "double-u").
The 1911 Britannica entry doesn't support the ODEP-N either:

Woolwich (Wulewich) is mentioned in a grant of land by King Edward in 964 to the abbey of St Peter at
Ghent. In Domesday the manor is mentioned as
consisting of 63 acres of land. The Roman Watling
Street crossed Shooter's Hill, and a Roman cemetery is supposed to have occupied the site of the Royal Arsenal, numerous Roman urns and fragments of Roman pottery having been dug tip in the neighbourhood.
Woolwich seems to have been a small fishing village until in the beginning of the 16th century it rose into prominence as a dockyard and naval station.
The ODEP-N's own list of suffixes shows that -wich can mean a number of things besides "port," including Roman settlement or a farm. Look at all those Roman references above. No, I suspect the ODEP-N is wrong on this one. Even though the mentioned connection to Ghent is enticing.

Way back there somewhere was a point, namely, English placenames rarely meant what they look like today. They're too old.

Best - Donna Richoux
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