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Thanks for that very interesting clarification. From my own experience of learning foreign languages, I'd say that learning set phrases ... your learner status and launches into high speed fully idiomatic mode but that bracing experience does motivate further learning.

I've had the disconcerting experience (especially in Italian) of asking someone a question and getting back a reponse that I couldn't even tokenize, much less understand.
A German-speaking friend commented once on an interview given by the then British Ambassador on German TV: "He's impressively fluent, ... repeating cliches". I thought she was rather underestimating his ability, but I got her point. (There's another one for you).

That's often true about politicians, even in their native languages.
I remember once hailing a taxi in Paris, and being treated after a brief exchange of courtesies to a long ... "vraiment?" "***!" and so on. Paying him after 25 minutes of this, he said "Vous parlez tres bien Francais Monsieur".

Especially if you shrug and say "bof".

It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995)
Anyway. One of the early things we teach is collocation with 'make' and 'do' - 'do the shopping', 'make the beds' 'do the washing up'. Is 'make the bed' a cliche? Or shall we all start doing the beds, instead?

I don't see how this is a matter of collocations and not simply of meaning. These two words are difficult for many non-native speakers because their meanings are rolled up into one verb in so many languages. Sure, each one has a whole host of idiosyncratic uses, of which "make the bed" might be one, but "do the any-verb-ing" isn't a specific collocation, it's an application of the most basic and general meaning of "do." Even the difference between "make the bed" and "do the dishes" seems better to me to explain in terms of meaning than specific uses. I'd save the list of collocations for things like doing a performance but making an appearance.
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Reaching for the topmost paper on my "To read" pile ... monitored empirical inquiry national culture statistical link risk management (noun+noun?)

Thank's, Laura, those are the sort of academic examples I was looking for. I'm going to come some random papers to find more examples in the wild. DC

Or even 'comb'.
DC
Glenn Knickerbocker wrote, in (Email Removed) on Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:25:36 -0400:
Anyway. One of the early things we teach is collocation ... cliche? Or shall we all start doing the beds, instead?

I don't see how this is a matter of collocations and not simply of meaning. These two words are difficult ... meaning than specific uses. I'd save the list of collocations for things like doing a performance but making an appearance.

Many years ago, ca. 1960, there was a letter in The Times from someone who had spent time as a volunteer in a refugee camp in some devastated part of Europe shortly after the war. In the bumf they were handed before going was 'Volunteers will be expected to make their own beds'. On arrival they were given wood, saw, hammer and nails.

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Thank's, Laura, those are the sort of academic examples I ... random papers to find more examples in the wild. DC

Or even 'comb'. DC

With thanks.
Aspasia
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Reaching for the topmost paper on my "To read" pile ... monitored empirical inquiry national culture statistical link risk management (noun+noun?)

Thank's, Laura, those are the sort of academic examples I was looking for. I'm going to come some random papers to find more examples in the wild.

This is the seminal study thing, right?

John
Thank's, Laura, those are the sort of academic examples I ... some random papers to find more examples in the wild.

This is the seminal study thing, right?

Brings tears to your eyes...
(to do the chambermaid is to make the bed yourself)
Many years ago, ca. 1960, there was a letter in The Times from someone who had spent time as a ... was 'Volunteers will be expected to make their own beds'. On arrival they were given wood, saw, hammer and nails.

It may have been the norm in the past, at least in some places. Didn't Barbara Allen want her bed made long and narrow? This argues that it was made up from scratch, although maybe without framing tools.
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(What, apart from that, does it mean?)
Just a few quickies:
properly so called
set phrase (!)
stock epithet
prime object, primary object, principal object
hard and fast

Mike.
Late husband?
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