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Hi,

In the following two examples, could someone help me understand the difference.

1) I have played soccer since ten(age of ten).

2) I have been playing soccer since ten.

Well, ... are they very much interchangable? I mean can you say either way?

Here, I am trying to say that you started playing soccer at age of ten, and you are still playing soccer now.

I believe that the latter one(example 2) is fluently used when you are telling such thing.

Thanks in advance.
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Comments  
Some scholars are analyzing the difference between the two tenses the way shown in the charts below.
See [url="http://acl.ldc.upenn.edu/P/P86/P86-1003.pdf "]Harper&Charnick :Time and Tense in English[/url]

SIMPLE PERFECT TENSE He has played

PAST NOW=speaker is speaking FUTURE
|---------------|
has
|---------------|
played
|-------------------------|

The event (the action 'play') time finishes at the beginning of speech]

PROGRESSIVE PERFECT TENSE He has been playing

PAST NOW=speaker is speaking FUTURE
|---------------|
has
|---------------|
been
|-------------------------|
playing
|-------------------------------|

The event (the action 'play') time penetrates into the time after the beginning of speech

paco
Hello!
To me, 1) means that you started playing soccer at the age of ten, and you still practise the sport at your present age.
2) would mean about the same,I think, but it shows that you are a real fan of that sport and very involved in the matter, maybe it's your job.
Yet,
I have been playing soccer since ten
, means that you started playing soccer at 10 o'clock and that you're still playing at the moment you say that sentence.
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I would agree that "I have been playing soccer since ten" sounds like you mean "since ten o'clock." I would say either
I have been playing soccer since I was ten.
I have played soccer since I was ten.
I started playing soccer when I was ten.
To me there is not a big difference between "I have played" and "I have been playing" in these sentences. Maybe the construction using "been playing" sounds more continuous.
Hello everybody!
How about the following sentences?

1. We have been married for three years, and very happy we have been, until I had some trouble with some very nasty loansharks about a month ago.

My question is: can I say this sentence if we have already divorced and we are unhappy now? It seems to me that in some "narrative mode" we could..... But I am not sure, so someone help me, please!

Or:

2. My husband is sleeping. He has been working for all day long.

My question is the same: such a sentence is correct? If it is correct, then are there some minor exceptions for the general rule which has quoted paco2004[F], that is, Progressive Perfect tense indicates that the event time penetrates into the time after the beginning of speech ....? Then,it means that, in most cases, there is not a big differences between "I have p.p." and "I have been ~ing", or there is a different shade of meaning, as pointed out knoff[F].

One more question: we can say 3 correctly, but how about 4?

3. We have been living in Moskow for three years now.

4. We have been living in Moskow for three years before.
(If living-event is expressed as experience, can I use "have been ~ ing" form here?...) [:^)]

I'm sorry for being fussy about trivial things... But I'm really interested in these questions. So... somebody please help me!
Hello Roro

As you know I'm an English learner and I myself am not so confident about between the simple tense and the progressive tense. So please use the following as something like junk food for your thought until native speakers give you more decisive answers.

Q.1)
I think you should change the tense of at least the second main clause into the past perfect. The revised version could be either;
[1]. "We have been married for three years, and had been very happy until I had some trouble with some very nasty loan-sharks about a month ago."
This one obligatorily implies you are still married. The duration you are married is 36 months and that you were happy was 35 months.

[2]. "We had been married and very happy for three years until I had some trouble with some very nasty loan-sharks about a month ago."
This one does not state anything about whether you are still married or not. What it is saying is only that you got married 37 months ago and you had enjoyed a happy marriage for 36 months before the troble started.

Q. 2) I would rather say ;
"My husband is sleeping. He has worked for all day long".
To me, sounds

Q.3).
"We have lived in Moscow for three years now."
As is a stative verb, you don't need to use a present perfect progressive tense unless you want to emphasize that you will live in Moscow furthermore.

Q 4).
"We lived in Moscow for three years before."
The word "before" indicates the event finished in the past. So in this case you don't need to use the past perfective sentence. But if you say "We had lived in Moscow for three years before we moved here", you'd better use .

This is my humble thought. Please wait until Ms Khoff or other native speakers come to give you better ansers.

paco
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Hello paco! Thank you for your careful, kind replyEmotion: smile

Although I've been learning English for many years, my active competence to use it, I should admit, remains on a rather low level (how sad!). But I'm really interested in studying its grammatical system: it's surprisingly logical... but I am still not so sure about the difference between "have p.p." and "have been ~ing".... Is it that logical..? Then where exactly is to draw the line? I am simply wondering. So let me add a little bit what I'm wondering...

With regard to Q1, dear paco, it seems to me that your explanation is very convincing, and your revised versions are rather calm, cool-headed way of description of what has happened, but... cannot we say " we have been very happy until I had some trouble..." in any case...? Does this sound so strange..?

With regard to Q2, too, how about the situation in which you scold your child: Be quiet! Daddy is sleeping! Daddy has been working for all day long today! ... ?

With regard to Q4, I had in mind the so-called Present Perfect of "experience", that is, we can say "we have some good friends in Moskow, because we have lived there before", can't we...? I was not sure if there is a rule something like "in this usage you can not use perfective progressive form". ( but now I think it was rather a silly question..)

So... maybe my questions are still in disorderEmotion: embarrassed Perhaps there is no decisive answer (or we need more context to give some answer...). I would like to know what other native speakers would say. Could somebody do me a favor, please?
Hello Roro

Excellent writing! I believe you are an advanced English learner, at least a learner much more advanced than me.

Anyway, what I feel about the problem you have now is that it rather come from your misunderstanding the tense relation in a sentence using the time connective word .

The usage of is like this;
[1] Event (=main clause : the verbal must have a continuity sense) time-anchor noun phrase.
EX-1 (o) We lived in Moscow until the spring of 1997.
EX-2 (o) I'll wait you at the station until 6:00 PM.
EX-3 (o) He didn't finish the work until 6:00 AM.
EX-4 (x) He finished the work until 6:00 AM.
Please note that has not a continuity sense but has a continuity sense.

Instead of nouns phrases, you can use a subordinate clause as the time anchor.
[2] Main Event Sub Event
EX-5 (o) We had lived in Moscow until we moved to St. Petersburg.
Please note happened first and then happened. This is why not but (a form for one-step backshifted than in time sequence) is used here.
EX-5 is the most correct as a formal English expression but native speakers often use instead of in their daily conversation. That is;
EX-5' (o?) We lived in Moscow until we moved to St. Petersburg.
is acceptable as a colloquial expression. This is because one can easily understand Main Event should happen before Sub Event happens in the constructions using .

In your sentence #1, you used for Main Event and for Sub Event. This is wrong because Main Event (=we be happy) should happen before Sub Event (=the loan trouble start). Because the Sub Event happens in the past and expressed in , you have to use either (='we had been happy') or (='we were happy').

As for Q #2, you can say "He has been working for all the day long" if this sentence stands alone. (You could utter this when you want to the continuity of 'his' working.) But you said "He is sleeping now" in the previous sentence. I feel "He is sleeping now" and "He has been working for all the day long" contradict each other. I think usual people cannot sleep and work simultaneously at a time.

As for Q #4, I suppose you would now understand why I said your sentence sounds odd. As you are saying, can mean sometimes an experience in the past.
EX-6 I have seen him before = I saw him at least once before.
But it depends on verbs. When you use (='have + p.p.') for stative verbs like , it implies the 'continuity of the action up to now', not a past experience.
EX-7 I have stayed in New York before (?) =/= I once stayed in New York.

This is my thought. But others (especially native speakers) may have another opinions. Please wait until they come to post here.

paco
Hi, paco!

I see.... Actually I did not pay much attention to the word "until". You've explained my problem very clearly, with regard to Q1. I really appreciate your kindness.

But let me put my question in this way. You say: there seems to be some contradiction in the sentence

.

Normal people cannot sleep and work simultaneouslyEmotion: smile , to be sure, but, I'm not quite sure, whether it is STATED in this sentence.

You've given me, paco, a good example of incorrect sentences. In your EX-4, , there is some semantic conflict between the words "finish" and "until", as you have explained. We could mention another, often quoted example: (1) is correct, but many people would reject (2), wouldn't they...?

(1) Prinston has visited by Einstein.
(2) Einstein has visited Prinston.

I think (2) is rejected because there is some implication that Einstein still exists, but it contradicts reality....
And I've been wondering.... Is there the same kind of contradiction of meaning in the sentence above?
(I'm so sorry for pestering you with same questions!Emotion: embarrassed )

Now as to Q4, how about the sentence: Have you ever been to Canada? Or... you know, they say: Been there, done that. I think, in some cases, stative verbs do indicate the previous experience in present perfect forms. Don't you think so..?

Roro
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