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Mark Barratt wrote on 18 Oct 2004:

Anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are unrelated, except in the mouths of the argument-deprived.

And in the minds of the reason-deprived, but because most people who express their anti-Zionism are also anti-Semites

What evidence do you have for this? Are you seriously suggesting that it not a tenable position to be against Israel's policy without being anti-Semitic?
Mark Barratt typed thus:

In her article, Ms Gould speaks (without going into details) of similar encounters in Edinburgh and Bournemouth (wherever that is).

It's the Deep South and is populated by retired Londoners who have saved enough money to move away .

That's true enough, but Bournemouth also has many "clubs" of the kind favoured by druggies and such, and local youths in my dull Wilthire market town yearn to run away from home and live in Bournemouth. I suppose they sleep on the beach. I wonder whether it was the oldies or the druggies who were rude to Ms Gould?
Alan Jones
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Thus spake Will:
Mark Barratt wrote on 18 Oct 2004: And in the minds of the reason-deprived, but because most people who express their anti-Zionism are also anti-Semites

What evidence do you have for this? Are you seriously suggesting that it not a tenable position to be against Israel's policy without being anti-Semitic?

Read it again. If you're still having trouble, ask for help.

Simon R. Hughes
See http://home.online.no/~shughes/stuff/email.html for my email address.
Mike Lyle typed thus: Have you seen and heard his ... of humans - it was clearly possible 40 years ago.

Apparently Boris has been being rude about Scousers recently:- - so he can't be all bad.

The trouble with Scousers is their accent. Even when they're happy they sound as though they're whinging.

Jordan Abel wrote on 18 Oct 2004:

people >> who express their anti-Zionism are also anti-Semites, there are >> precious few who are truly "argument-deprived".

it's easy enough to see why if this is to ... whenever they open their mouths, they learn to keep silent.

That is their problem, IMO. But I did not say that all anti-Zionists were also anti-Semites, nor do I shout down or advocate the shouting- down of anti-Zionists as anti-Semites. The two can be separate, but more often than not they are conjoined.

Even if this were true (and I don't accept that it is) where is the relevance? If the arguments advanced for anti-Zionism are, in fact, simply Anti-Jewish, then they deserve to be dismissed. The existence of such arguments, however, in no way invalidates other, religiously neutral arguments - even if the proponents can be shown to be anti-Jewish.
If the mother of a palestinian victim of Israeli policy says that she hates all Jews, and that Israel did not have the right to kill her child, does her first statement invalidate the second?

Mark Barratt
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What you experienced was big city manners. In such a place there will always be somebody right behind you to ... lady walked past (there were no other passers by); she stopped and asked me in English if she could help.

When in Douglas, I.o.M., I wanted to find Barclays Bank. couldn't see it anywhere. Went into a rival bank and asked. The cashier came out of his bank and escorted me round several corners until we could actually see Barclay's.
With my accent I obviously wasn't a Manxman.

Those who disagree with the genocide and apartheid arguments usually do so when the facts are taken out of context ... as the only people not entitled to a homeland. It's not a stretch to argue that such people are anti-Semites.

I'm sure you'll agree that there's a difference between "entitled to have" and "entitled to take by force". And who, exactly, is doing this "entitling", anyway?

Mark Barratt
An interesting article about Rightpondia in today's Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1328663,00.html Comment ... my safety Carol Gould Saturday October 16, 2004 The Guardian

Disturbing; but it was news to me. We must check the inevitable responses in Monday's edition to see if they confirm or deny.

From today (Monday)'s online Guardian:

Expats on anti-Americanism
Monday October 18, 2004
The Guardian
As an American who has lived in Britain for over 30 years, I read Carol Gould's description (An American scapegoat in London, October 16) with increasing incredulity. As a regular user of public transport and with constant exposure to people of many different backgrounds, I have never met the visceral hatred of Americans she describes. Indeed, last week's Guardian poll (We like Americans, we don't like Bush, October 15) shows the British have no difficulty in distinguishing between antipathy to Americans and their foreign policy.
Naturally, I have heard much concern about the latter, from the debacle of Vietnam to the current Iraqi misadventure - US foreign policy affects the entire world. Gould's wildly exaggerated accusations of anti-Americanism and anti-semitism should not be used as a smokescreen to deny the right of legitimate criticism of the policies of the US and Israeli governments, a right increasingly exercised by many Americans and Jews. Dr Edie Friedman
I think and hope Ms Gould's experience is not typical, but it is clear that much of today's hysterical anti-Americanism is merely a surrogate for anti-semitism. Many people cannot stomach the fact that there is a power that wants to protect Jews. They would much rather "sympathise" with those who want to murder them. This is usually hidden under the mask of anti-Zionism. As ever, there are Jewish fellow-travellers more than happy to go along with this fraud to prove their liberal credentials.
Dr Michael Schachter
"Europe has always been a seething hotbed of anti-semitism." She does not mention one diabolically clever way by which the Europeans attempt to conceal this. In the UK, a Jewish citizen (Mr Howard) has been allowed to serve as leader of the Conservative party and others (Messrs Mandelson and Miliband, for instance) are prominent in Labour's senior ranks. In France, the next presidential election will probably have M Sarkozy as the candidate of the right, and M Holland for the left. Each is Jewish. Ms Gould is to be congratulated for not allowing herself to be fooled.
Norman Birnbaum
Washington DC
I would certainly agree that when I open my mouth in public, I run the risk of what I call "that conversation", which, in my experience, includes the following: "You left California to come here? Why, what on earth do you see in this country?" I have an uphill task to persuade people I am not mad to have left the "greatest place on earth" to come and live here.
As for my Jewish heritage, living and working in Oldham, I am accustomed to anti-Islamic remarks and to the effects of racism on my colleagues and adult students. My work with asylum seekers, who daily face being reviled and abused, gives me perspective on my experiences. I could never describe the inconveniences of explaining my national or ethnic background as in the same league. Magda Sachs
As an American who has also spent most of my adult life here, I realised long before 9/11 that everyone here didn't love us. This "island race" does have antagonistic feelings verging on the xenophobic. Anyone who has heard the British praise France if it only wasn't for the French, or claim all Italians are sex-mad cowards, knows they distrust everyone equally and, so, shouldn't be surprised that we aren't exempt just because we are so sure we're God's gift.
Rick Bryant
Exeter, Devon
The more I considered the article, the more offended I became. I am a Texan and have had the great pleasure of holidaying in Britain for many years. London is one of my favourite cities in the world. No one has ever been anything but kind. The people smile when they hear my accent, start conversations with me and give me friendly advice. It is a great disservice to both our countries to write of "American bashing".
Patricia Redford Kidd
Valley Spring, Texas
Having lived for two years in Alpharetta, Georgia, I can assure Carol Gould that educated Americans do invite Brits to their dinner table to abuse their country, do scream abuse at them in the street and elsewhere, or, in my actual experience, threaten to punch them in a Florida bar "cos you Brits think you know everything".
More serious was the constant stream of anti-European hate in the media at the time of the war in Iraq. And as for anti-semitic Europe, there may be a few with such views, but it is much less of a problem than the racism in the States, where, having married an African-American lady, some colleagues never spoke to me again. We joke over who they hate more: her, a successful black woman, or me, a snobby European.
Jonathan Fanning
As American expats who have lived in London for just over four years, we have found our neighbours to be welcoming and gracious people. The truest measure of actual sentiments can be measured by the substantial majority of the British people who wish to see George Bush defeated. That is the ultimate expression of kindness towards the American people.
Rev Ronald Garner

Mark Barratt
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Steve quoted Alan as having published in the Guardian :
The rejection of Mr Bush is strongest in France where 72% say they would back Mr Kerry

Why no comma after "France"? Has such commalessness become standard in British publications? One sees it a lot in the TLS.
but it is also very strong in traditionally very pro-American South Korea, where fears of a pre-emptive US strike against North Korea have translated into 68% support for Mr Kerry.

How nice that historical causation can be so simple!
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