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"She (Phyllis Chesler) is unequivocal in declaring that those who ... are unable (or unwilling) to distinguish between anti-zionism and anti-semitism.

Those who disagree with the genocide and apartheid arguments usually do so when the facts are taken out of context ... as the only people not entitled to a homeland. It's not a stretch to argue that such people are anti-Semites.

If it's being "antesemitic" to see a resemblance to apartheid in the current Israel-Palestine situation, then antisemitism is a thoroughly good thing.

Antisemitism was originally a term devised by racists to describe a kind of racism they approved of.
Now it is used by racists to describe a kind of antiracism they disappove of.

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Disturbing; but it was news to me. We must check the inevitable responses in Monday's edition to see if they confirm or deny.

From today (Monday)'s online Guardian: ** Letters Expats on anti-Americanism

(...Mark quoted in full...)
But since I've just copied the URL, I may as well post it anyhow, in case anybody would like to pass it on:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,1329763,00.html
It was a great relief to me to read the letters, since I'm fond of this country and its often not entirely hostile natives. What we now need to find out, but probably never will, is what on earth Mrs Gould said to get the reactions she did. My experience is that if you open up a political discussion with Brits you don't know, the most likely response will be noises of vague agreement followed by a hasty change of subject to flower-arranging or the previous night's television.

If they're really furious, though, they'll tell you how the train was late yesterday, too, and that you just can't trust the weather forecast, and what a relief it was that that dog in the news was reprieved by the judge. Anybody who goes further than that is, by local convention, almost certainly a nutter; and you're the first person who's listened to them this month.
Mike.
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What you experienced was big city manners. In such a ... stopped and asked me in English if she could help.

When in Douglas, I.o.M., I wanted to find Barclays Bank. couldn't see it anywhere. Went into a rival bank and ... and escorted me round several corners until we could actually see Barclay's. With my accent I obviously wasn't a Manxman.

In Ireland, I think it was in Wexford, I asked directions from what I thought was a local. He walked with me for two city blocks (my measurement, but not the local measurement) to take me to someone else who he thought would know of the place I was looking for. Turned out that he walked me the wrong direction and doubled the trip, but the thought was there.
A while back, though, I drove quite a bit out of my way to lead a tourist to an intersection that would put him on the road that he was looking for. It was a complicated route, and easier to lead him than to direct him.
I think there are people who will help tourists in any city in any country. It's not a society thing, but an individual thing.
That is their problem, IMO. But I did not say that all anti-Zionists were also anti-Semites, nor do I shout down or advocate the shouting- down of anti-Zionists as anti-Semites. The two can be separate, but more often than not they are conjoined.

An assertion which, if accepted, creates an environment in which such shouting-down is justified (on the grounds, of course, that they are "probably" really anti-semites)
I take it you have found that kind of thing ... or not, it is news to me. Mike.

I actually did give examples, although they were hypothetical.

What is the value of a hypothetical example in defence of a non-hypothetical remark?
I
gave an example of how in a place where 95% of people are not racists, one could expect a group ... even one percent of Brits to bash Americans in order for her to be subjected to the level she reported.

That's absurd: she claimed a general tendency to overt hostility, not a rare occurrence. It would, in ordinary probability, certainly require a lot more than one per cent of the population to be US-bashers to produce the number and intensity of incidents she claims. Unless she is misrepresenting her experience.
Widespread is a subjective term, so I could not necessarily give you an example that satisfies your definition. If one percentof airplanes that fly in the UK crashed every day, would you considerit a widespread problem?

You said something "should not be news" to me. That carries the implication that the thing is widespread enough for me to be familiar with it. I'm not familiar with it, and asked for examples, and you didn't produce any.
If you read any English newspaper, you should be able to find that there is a significant enough level of American bashing that Americans could be exposed to it to the degree that she reported.

If you read the newspaper which gave rise to this discussion, you will not "should be able to" find that's apparently false. Mark posted the letters in full; but here's the URL again, since you're sceptical:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,3604,1329763,00.htmlcan't

You don't, I imagine, make worrying statements about people in a particular place at a particular time without expecting somebody who lives there to ask you for evidence.
Mike.
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Thus spake Will:

What evidence do you have for this? Are you seriously suggesting that it not a tenable position to be against Israel's policy without being anti-Semitic?

Read it again. If you're still having trouble, ask for help.

Ok. Help.
Will.
Mike Lyle wrote on 18 Oct 2004:
Letters Expats on anti-Americanism

(...Mark quoted in full...) But since I've just copied the URL, I may as well post it anyhow, in case ... relief to me to read the letters, since I'm fond of this country and its often not entirely hostile natives.

Yes, I agree. It seems that Ms Gould may be the kind of person who attracts trouble and antipathy because of what she says or how she says it or both. As I said in another post, I know nothing of the woman or her writing beyond that Guardian piece. I was worried that Europe was becoming as pro-American as the USA's former banana republics in Central and South America where the yanqui gringo is treated with such great respect and affection.
What we now need to find out, but probably never will, is what on earth Mrs Gould said to get the reactions she did.

Maybe she'll reply to some of those letters. I'd be interested to see if she can defend what she wrote.
My experience is that if you open up a political discussion with Brits you don't know, the most likely response will be noises of vague agreement followed by a hasty change of subject to flower-arranging or the previous night's television.

Yes, the reality here in AUE is that we Yanks are the mouthy, confrontational, argumentative ones and the Brits are, with a couple of notable exceptions, reluctant to get into it. Must be that cricket isn't as much of a contact sport as baseball.
If they're really furious, though, they'll tell you how the train was late yesterday, too, and that you just can't ... that is, by local convention, almost certainly a nutter; and you're the first person who's listened to them this month.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
Jordan Abel wrote on 18 Oct 2004:
That is their problem, IMO. But I did not say ... be separate, but more often than not they are conjoined.

An assertion which, if accepted, creates an environment in which such shouting-down is justified (on the grounds, of course, that they are "probably" really anti-semites)

Only by twisted little minds. I would never have thought that thought at all. You seem to be insinuating something here. Why don't you just come out and say it? I am unwilling to put words in your mouth.

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
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Mike Lyle wrote on 18 Oct 2004:

My experience is that if you open up a political ... change of subject to flower-arranging or the previous night's television.

Yes, the reality here in AUE is that we Yanks are the mouthy, confrontational, argumentative ones and the Brits are, with acouple of notable exceptions, reluctant to get into it. Must be thatcricket isn't as much of a contact sport as baseball.

I did specify, above, "Brits you don't know"!

Mike.
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