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Oy vey! Jesus Christ! Ay caramba! Madonna mia! And every other racial slur! Oh well, the poor girl is probably just not very bright. Maybe I can tutor her?

Out of curiousity, what makes you think that the author is female?

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >When all else fails, give the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >customer what they ask for. ThisPalo Alto, CA 94304 >is strong medicine and rarely needs

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Jones: Hmmm...maybe you people aren't dumb. Maybe you just never learned the vowel sounds in terms of "long" and "short". ... with the actual length of the vowels. It just means that each English vowel has, in general, two different sounds.

You might notice that he's posting from the UK. Evidently the notion of "long" and "short" as the names for the contrast is pretty much limited to the US. (I don't know about Canada.)
Phonetically, of course, the only place most of us in the US have a length contrast is in pairs like "cap" and "cab", where the only phonetic difference is that the vowel in the second is longer.

For non-Americans, our canonical vowels are
long A bait short A bat
long E beat short E bet
long I bite short I bit
long O boat short O bot
long U butte short U but
(I was also taught that "a long vowel says it's own name") and for some,
long OO boot short OO book
The distinction is signalled in writing by a macron for long vowels and a breve for short vowels.
the other vowels are pedagogically
AW bought
OY boil
OW bout

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >It is error alone which needs the
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Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
So it seems that they were trying to find something that wasn't a sacred symbol to anybody. It wouldn't surprise me if you had to get up to eight points before you found a star that fit the bill.

The Newagers have staked out the nine-pointed one, and I think the Pythagoreans had a soft spot for the one with seventeen..
Incidentally, those of us who played with Spirographs as kids know that it's a solecism to speak of "the" n-pointed star where n>6...there are two heptagrams, one with each point joined to the ones two positions away and one where it leads to the ones at the far side of the star...I've even seen the two forms inscribed one within the othere, though I know not the significance of that..r
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
(I was also taught that "a long vowel says it's own name")

Oy! to whoever taught that..r
Barnes:

to Huh?

There is no such thing as a question "too foolish" to deserve an answer.

Did you notice that your rewrite changed "not deserve" to "deserve"?

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
Did you people never learn short and long vowel sounds? "Tin" is short "I"; "teen" is long "I".

The way it's usually taught in school is that "tin" is short "i" and "teen" is long "e". In ASCIIPA, "tin" is (I) and "teen" is (i). Mike Hardy
Phonetically, of course, the only place most of us in the US have a length contrast is in pairs like "cap" and "cab", where the only phonetic difference is that the vowel in the second is longer.

That may be true of "most of us in the US", but New York region speakers, probably including Young Joey, have a difference in the quality of the vowel ("cap" has the "be able can" lax can vowel, while "cab" has the "tin can" tense can vowel). This is a phonemic difference too (because of "can").
Did you people never learn short and long vowel sounds? "Tin" is short "I"; "teen" is long "I".

The way it's usually taught in school is that "tin" is short "i" and "teen" is long "e". In ASCIIPA, "tin" is (I) and "teen" is (i). Mike Hardy

And in the traditional American system of representing pronunciation, the sounds are indicated as follows (followed by the ASCII IPA equivalent):

"long 'e'": e with a macron, /i/.
"short 'e'": e with a breve, /E/.
"long 'i'": i with a macron, /aI/.
"short 'i'": i with a breve, /I/.
See
and
To most native speakers of American English, this was learned in elementary school, but I've learned in this newsgroup that some native speakers of English never learned such a system.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Teachers: We supply a list of EFL job vacancies
Phonetically, of course, the only place most of us in ... difference is that the vowel in the second is longer.

That may be true of "most of us in the US", but New York region speakers, probably including Young Joey, ... can vowel, while "cab" has the "tin can" tense can vowel). This is a phonemic difference too (because of "can").

Fair point. How about the other (typically) length-determined pairs:

bait : bade bat : bad
beat : bead bet : bed
bite : bide bit : bid
boat : bode bot : bod
cute : cued but : bud
boot : booed foot : food
bought : baud
lout : loud
(I can't seem to think of one with /OI/.)

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