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Grammar GeekAnon, respect goes both ways. You require respect for your wife, but fail to give it to others who make different choices? But you claim others lack it. When people make sweeping stereotypes, as you have done by assuming veiled women use welfare money to raise their children, you lessen the credibility of your argument. There are many things that trouble me about our welfare system, but what the women wear is truly an aspect that had never crossed my mind.
I forgot my password...I am Coburn from Germany.

Immigration to Germany is quite different from that in the US. We almost exclusively get the illiterate and poor. Anyway, what I was trying to say was that I surely couldn't do the things I am doing in Germany as freely in Arab countries. And I would act accordingly out of respect for their way of life if I chose to move to let's say Oman or Saudi Arabia. In turn I demand the same for me which would include dressing up in an appropriate way. I wonder what my neighbors in an Arab country would say if I started throwing pork sausages in the barbecue pit and pop open a beeer in my back yard.. They more than likely wouldn't tolerate my way of life either.

no we will tolerate it don't worry;)
It is hard for us to understand and accept the veiled women as we have no tradition here of concealing womens faces for modesty. Our women are considered perfectly 'decent' with their faces on view.

The problem when these two opposing views meet, is that our culture only has a tradition of people concealing their faces for bad purposes, to hide their identity for some illicit, usually criminal, reasons. It is not normal behaviour to us for anyone to hide their face - if someone in our culture did that then they would be up to something bad. We do realise that this is part of some cultures though, so we try to accomodate it, and of course do not think that all veiled Muslim women must be criminals, but we can't help but feel a bit suspicious of people we can't see. It's part of our culture/deep down pyschology to not trust people with concealed faces, however educated we are about the reasons for Muslim women to wear a veil, it's just that gut reaction of distrust it provokes that is hard to counteract. In the same way that you would find it hard not to react to a woman walking around your streets in a bikini top in a certain way.
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Mythical LadyOne last request to western people;

When you are dealing with a Muslim woman wearing the veil, stop looking at an appearance and look at something greater than this; the human and mind lie behind the veil.

I could just as easily say, "One request to Muslim people:

When you are dealing with a non-Muslim woman not wearing the veil, stop looking at an appearance and look at something greater than this; the human and mind lie behind the veil."

The last time I checked, judging others by their appearance instead of looking deeper is a human trait unconnected to time, place, or social group.
M. CalibanI could just as easily say, "One request to Muslim people:

When you are dealing with a non-Muslim woman not wearing the veil, stop looking at an appearance and look at something greater than this; the human and mind lie behind the veil."

The last time I checked, judging others by their appearance instead of looking deeper is a human trait unconnected to time, place, or social group.

That's an interesting point. But it would surely be more relevant to a context in which Muslims said to non-Muslims, "you should wear the veil", rather than a context in which non-Muslims said to Muslims, "you should not wear the veil".

Mythical Lady
Hi again,

I mean by Hijab here both neqab or scarf. Why a Muslim woman wears this or that is according to the doctrine to which one belongs. But again this is a matter of princple not of disrespect to the others. I am not going to take off my neqab in order to please a human being, at the meanwhile disobey my God. Anyhow, if anyone refuses to deal with me on the basis of my veil, I am not simply going to deal with them. I have my freedom of choices.

And your analogy to the naturists is an odd one. It's as if you make both black and white the same colour!!

How odd that you say that you have your freedom of choices - when beforehand, you say that you need to wear your neqab otherwise you will be disobeying your God? Yet, your God doesn't even insist that you wear neqab.

I also assume that you can see where I'm coming from in the respect of me not wanting to deal with anyone wearing a full veil? After all, you state that you will simply not deal with anyone who would ask you to remove your veil. This is precisely where Islam and the Western world have a stalemate. For me to ask you to remove your veil would be an insult to you, but for you not to remove your veil is an insult to me. Which one of us is right? Both of us are right because you have your way and I have mine. Your way isn't superior to mine any more than may way is superior to yours.

as i see the problem is how each one think about wearing Hijab or veil and having different concepts about it as the westerners mosly said it's not comfortable for them to deal with a veiled woman the other one (muslims) think it's a religious issue and it's a Goddess offer so they prefer to follow the religion in terms of following God's orders so i think the latter is superior cause it's nice to see people following the religion and God but i understand that it's uncomfortable for westerners the issue that both should understand eachother more
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The position of women in Islam has recently been an issue of debate. Some misconceptions arise, either from traditional practices which are thought to be "Islamic," but are not, or else from prejudices. However, the real issue is how women are regarded in the Islamic faith, and when we look at this, we see that Islam gives women great social value, freedom and comfort.

Women in the Qur'an

God's commandments about the status of women and the relations between men and women, which have been revealed to us through the Qur'an, consist of full justice. In this regard, Islam suggests equality of rights, responsibilities and duties between the two genders. Islam is based on sympathy, tolerance and respect for human beings, and does not discriminate against women in this matter.

The examples of good morals communicated to us in the Qur'an are universally compatible with human nature, and are valid for all stages of history.

Respect for women and women's rights fall within this. In the Qur'an God insists that the tasks and responsibilities of women are the same as those of men. Furthermore, while performing these tasks and responsibilities men and women must help and support each other:

The men and women of the believers are friends of one another. They command what is right and forbid what is wrong, and establish prayer and pay alms, and obey Allah and His Messenger. They are the people on whom Allah will have mercy. Allah is Almighty, All Wise. (Qur'an, 9:71)

God emphasizes that believers will be rewarded in the same manner according to their deeds, regardless of their gender.

Their Lord responds to them: 'I will not let the deeds of any doer among you go to waste, male or female - you are both the same in that respect... (Qur'an, 3:195)

Anyone who acts rightly, male or female, being a believer, We will give them a good life and We will recompense them according to the best of what they did. (Qur'an, 16:97)

In another verse, Muslim men and women are considered together, and it is stressed that both have the same responsibility and status in God's sight:

Men and women who are Muslims, men and women who are believers, men and women who are obedient, men and women who are truthful, men and women who are steadfast, men and women who are humble, men and women who give alms, men and women who fast, men and women who guard their private parts, men and women who remember Allah much: Allah has prepared forgiveness for them and an immense reward. (Qur'an, 33:35)

In the Qur'an there are many more verses stating that men and women are exactly equal in terms of their tasks and responsibilities and their rewards or punishments in return. There are a few differences in social issues, but these are for the comfort and protection of women. The commands of the Qur'an regard the congenital differences between the two genders resulting from their creation, and suggest a system maintaining equal justice for men and women in this light.

Islam does not see women as objects. Therefore, it is not seen appropriate that a woman of good morals should marry a man of bad morals. In the same way, it is not permitted for a woman of bad morals to marry a man of good morals:

Corrupt women are for corrupt men and corrupt men are for corrupt women, Good women are for good men and good men are for good women. The latter are innocent of what they say. They will have forgiveness and generous provision. (Qur'an, 24:26)

Also as regards marriage, the duties and responsibilities of couples towards each other require equality. God demands that both spouses be protective of and supervise each other. This duty is expressed in the Qur'an in the following words.

They are covers for you and you for them... (Qur'an, 2:187)

Many rules and commandments exist in the Qur'an regarding the protection of women's rights on marriage. Marriage is based on the free will of both parties; the husband has to provide economic support for his wife (4:4); the husband has to look after his ex-wife after divorce (65:6).

The Islamic Emancipation of Women

As the verses make clear, Islam brings justice to male-female relations and puts an end to harmful practices resulting from customs and traditions of pre-Islamic societies. One example is the situation of women in pre-Islamic Arab society. The pagan Arabs regarded women as inferior, and having a daughter was something to be ashamed of. Fathers of daughters sometimes preferred to bury them alive rather than announce their birth. By means of the Qur'an, Allah prohibited this evil tradition and warned that on the Judgment Day such people will definitely have to account for their actions.

In fact, Islam brought with it a great emancipation for women, who were severely persecuted in the pagan era. Prof. Bernard Lewis, known as one of the greatest Western experts on the history of Islam and the Middle East, makes the following comment:

In general, the advent of Islam brought an enormous improvement in the position of women in ancient Arabia, endowing them with property and some other rights, and giving them a measure of protection against ill treatment by their husbands or owners. The killing of female infants, sanctioned by custom in Pagan Arabia, was outlawed by Islam. But the position of women remained poor, and worsened when, in this as in so many other respects, the original message of Islam lost its impetus and was modified under the influence of pre-existing attitudes and customs. 1

Karen Armstrong, another Western expert on Islam, makes the following comment:

We must remember what life had been like for women in the pre-Islamic period when female infanticide was the norm and when women had no rights at all. Like slaves, women were treated as an inferior species, who had no legal existence. In such a primitive world, what Muhammad achieved for women was extraordinary. The very idea that a woman could be witness or could inherit anything at all in her own right was astonishing. 2

In fact, during the many centuries that followed Prophet Muhammad, women of the Islamic societies had a much higher social position than the women of Christendom. Karen Armstrong emphasizes that, during the Middle Ages;

... the Muslims were horrified to see the way Western Christians treated their women in the Crusader states, and Christian scholars denounced Islam for giving too much power to menials like slaves and women. 3

Anna King, a modern Muslim woman and a convert - or, better to say, a revert - to Islam, explains the Islamic emancipation of women as follows:

Islam first gave women their rights in a time when women were nothing but the property of men. Islam gave women the right to buy and sell on their own, own businesses and express her views politically. These were all basic rights which the American woman was not granted until relatively recently! It also encouraged women to study and learn Islamic knowledge, breaking a ban which several religions had stipulated, which forbid women to acquire any religious knowledge or touch religious texts... It also abolished the practice of marrying a woman without her consent. Thus, one would have to be very stubborn indeed to refuse such obvious facts and proofs that Islam was women's first liberator.

The tendencies to see women as "an inferior species" who has no right for education and that must be totally secluded from the society arose much later in the Islamic world, as a result of deviations from the right Qur'anic path.


Thus we can say that the mentality that despises women, excludes them from society and regards them as second class citizens is a wicked pagan attitude which has no place in Islam.

In fact, devout women are depicted as good examples for mankind in the Qur'an. One is Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. Another is the wife of the Egyptian Pharaoh who, despite her husband's wickedness, is also described as an ideal Muslim. (see, 66:11-12) The Qur'an also describes very gentle conversations between the Prophet Solomon and the Queen of Sheba (27:42-44), and between Moses and two young ladies (28:23-26), which symbolize the civilized social relationship between the two genders.

Therefore, it is impossible for a Muslim to have a bigoted approach to women. In a society where true Islamic morals are practiced, immense respect and sympathy will be shown to women, and it will be ensured that they can live in freedom and comfort.

The fundamental rule in Qur'anic exegesis is ensuring that the derived meaning is in conformity with the integrity of the Qur'an. When this is considered, it is seen that all the rules mentioned to us by Allah regarding women form a social structure allowing them to live in the most comfortable and happiest way. In a society where all the moral values mentioned by Islam are practiced comprehensively, the social position of women becomes even more exalted than in societies that we today regard as modern.

http://www.harunyahya.com /
(1) Bernard Lewis, The Middle East, Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London, 1995, p. 210
(2) Karen Armstrong, Muhammad A Biography of The Prophet, Harper Collins Publisher, USA, 1992, p.191
(3) Karen Armstrong, Muhammad A Biography of The Prophet, Harper Collins Publisher, USA, 1992, p.199

Hello Nrbn

it's important that muslims know all of that, and as many muslims forget all of that said in the Quran, there are some islamic feminist movements, check the Conclusions part.

NrbnThus we can say that the mentality that despises women, excludes them from society and regards them as second class citizens is a wicked pagan attitude which has no place in Islam.

I assume "pagan" means religions other than Islam, Christianity and Judaism. If so, it is entirely misconceived to consider that all "pagans" have a "mentality that despises women, excludes them from society and regards them as second class citizens". I need only refer to the teachings of the Buddha who taught several centuries before Mohammed.

The fact is that in all major civilisations, whatever the teachings of the religions followed, women were never fully emancipated in the sense that all of them had the opportunity to operate freely in the same spheres as men. Women should not be "exalted", but given the same opportunities as men.
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Hi NRBN, I've seen you on another forum, Nairaland!
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