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MrPedanticIt seems to me that saying "please remove your veil" to a veiled Muslim woman is equivalent to saying "please unbutton your blouse" to an unveiled Muslim woman.

And doesn't the "current way of life" in the UK involve the notion of "tolerance" – in this case, acceptance that other people dress differently from ourselves?

This logic surprises me MrP, all the more coming from you Emotion: smile

Sorry, I simply fail to see that an equivilency can be established based on measured levels of disrobement... So, if this Muslim women arrived with an "unbuttoned blouse", would she then have to take it off? The body is never part of the issue as it is presumebly/unquestionably always robed, and to the neck at that! (On final edit, I note that you should have her take the blouse off if true equivalency was respected when applying logic! Or are you equating the amount of arousal caused by each of the disrobements?)

Off on a tangent, I'd wonder about equating modesty or restraint and how to justify the choice between covering all but the eyes or all but the face. If it's attraction, temptation, carnal desire that is being adressed, well... you don't actually need all but the mind's own trigger to find either/any, it's easily accessed through the imagination: the urge comes from within and is one's own responsibility. Being dressed from head to toe could, in and by itself, become erotic! So that doesn't jive.

Although called modesty for her, it remains a falsely disquised imature lack of self discipline - never mind a primate urge never recognized (male, that is). There's a short between the mind and basic urges. I note the previous writer that shared information about her (female symbol anyway) Muslim country's rape "record" (my own word - I can't find the right word/way to say it!)

And anyway, the show of restraint in public places indicates that the capacity is there. If you can hold it in your pants in public, then with that same effort, you can do it in private too.

I so want to say - It boils down to this - but I find that too pretentious, and surely somewhat false. What I can see through all that fog in my brain is that the primal urges are geared towards reproduction and storing food. The latter is primary, hence the fight for land (wars and some such things are part of ). Reproduction is secondary but, oh! all so pervasive! Dressed up, not dressed up, it boils down to an attitude, a mind set, a chosen way on how to relate to the world. That's true for every living soul even if not every one of those living souls will necessarily do either, or in the same measure/way. ("living soul" used as a commonly experienced way of saying "everybody"! Emotion: smile

MrP, you're right though... we should all practice more tolerance. And more self control. A next question could be, How do you find the even middle, since we all have to be tolerent? For me, public security, therefore public places: face uncovered (weather permitting - I'm thinking of our -40 and bellow and windy days!), inside public places included.


This logic surprises me MrP, all the more coming from you Emotion: smile

Sorry, I simply fail to see that an equivilency can be established based on measured levels of disrobement... So, if this Muslim women arrived with an "unbuttoned blouse", would she then have to take it off?

Sorry, Anon, I think you may have misunderstood my comment.

I meant that there will be cases where saying "please remove your veil" to person A will be as startling to person A as saying "please unbutton your blouse" would be to person B.

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that, on the whole, it's best to be a little cautious when asking other people to remove their clothing.


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This message reminds me of a lot of memories in my chilhood. I have learned in some reading about Marakech that the decent girl in some countries should hide their faces all her life. And after nearly fifty years, I was very surprised when president Jacques Chirac announced that he didn't give permission to young girls with a veil at school. It's different to some opinion: French expels girls in veil to go to school. When you go to school, you should follow some rules, you wear uniform, shoes, further more you should stick the same labels on your notebooks, hand some traditional bags like Chinese schoolgirls and schoolboys used to hand in my country in order to avoid the discrimination between the rich and the poor. My daughter's friend told us that he was very shock to see a muslim student have given up some classes because it's time for him to pray. The rule is the rule. No one can break the rule but you can do something to make it's softer. For example, you must insist your professor to be absent at some classes because you have an important job to do instead of telling him that you can't attend his classes because you should recite your prayers.However, it's difficult to find a reason for wearing a veil.

I had a neighbour when living in Dalat. She was very beautiful in dark glasses and becomes very ugly when she didn't wear them. My teacher and she were in the same class.The professor in the university couldn't stand their students to wear dark glasses when listening his lecture.He had some speaking by hints to say about that. All of the assembly room stared at her.She didn't say any words besides crying.One day, her brother got married, all of the female guesses , including the bridemaids were wearing dark glasses in order not to offense her in a great party.

I was born in an aristocratic family with a lot of old-fashioned customs . When I go to a French school, I used to wear the " ao dai", a kind of dress with two long flows. We were very embarassed when we learned to dance. No one wanted to dance with me because I couldn't turn around like the others with their Victorian dresses though My "ao dai" were very beautiful with velvet or traditional silk materials. At the end, my teacher, a sister helped me to draw these two flows as the width of the bulging dress. Only a gentle French boy, Emile , liked to be my partner and I never dared to share this secret to anyone.

When I was grown- up a little, I wished I were older to wear a blue veil made of lace like the elegant seniors schoolgirls used to wear at some ceremonies instead of a beret. A blue Jean and a shirt were my daily clothes when attending university.I didn't dare to wear a long skirt when the others with their fashionable miniskirts. I remember clearly, in a conference of "Woman magazine",an intellectual woman had a speech in tittle:"What do you think when people stare at your daughter in her long skirt instead of a miniskirt like the others when she goes around the street?"

Time has passed. I can't stand a belly and a part of hump displaying in the fashionable clothes of young girls. My sister consoled me: "Every thing has been changing. Your daughter can't wear a Jean and a shirt of the nineteens like yours. It's very odd. I think over the large V-neck and the miniskirt at the past and reluctantly accept the weird clothes that the young used to wear today.

To sum up, things always change.We should accept the modern waves if they get benefit to us.The veil makes young girls difficult to manage their jobs in this modern society.We should let them look like the others in our new life with sports, lecture, music, party, dance, aerobics, game on line,etc....
Hi Titithi,

I don't think that veil makes young girls difficult to manage their jobs in society but people's thought towards them.Your child can do sport, attend a lecture or join a party with her veil, too.It may be hard but life will not make sense if everything is easy to do.I just see a shy girl in you but I think this is so because you were grown up like this.You say you didn't dare to wear a long skirt while others were wearing fashionable mini-skirts.Can you tell me why?Were they going to eat you if you wore it?Though I am 20 years old and don't wear a veil, I prefer long skirts while my friends wear that fashionable mini-skirsts, especially it keeps warm in winter.Emotion: smile..I don't have to be like the other ones.Sometimes you have to learn how to say no without speaking.I wear formal clothes while my friends wear jeans.I drink ayran while they drink cola.Emotion: smileI just do what I want to do.I am really sorry for you that you couldn't show this courage.At first, they looked at me strangely but you won't believe later they started to prefer long skirts in winter,too.They just understood that they are the same person whether they wore a long skirt or not.As for that changed things, yes you are right things change but that doesn't mean that women shouldn't wear a veil.
Doll, you are a Muslim?
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Yes.Is this so important?
There shuld not be all this disagreement over a asubject which can not be concluded by intellect , it is just a matter of feeling. Not just women but also men do feel that there are parts of their body that should be covered , muslim or not.Neither that male who is ordered in Isalm to cover his body from his navel to his knee, nor the female who covers her head would feel humilation when doing so, but rather proud of, that is if they are doing it in a free will. Almost every nation has its own type of covering for the mens heads , and they are not forced to wear it, like hats in the West or turbanes in the East. Islam has not forced any one to follow its teaching , if there is some occations here and there suggest that , it is misunderstanding of the religion , or delebrate attempt of distortion.Wearing clothes indicated the stages where humanity enetred a new phase , civilisation, and has always been a symble of of modesty , a sign of rank or luxury, or a shield against heat or cold.
Hey Doll,

I am just asking a question and I only want to know more about youEmotion: big smile. Is it okay with you or notEmotion: sad?
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Okay, no matter.Emotion: smile
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