while reading an essay about Tibetan Art, i happened to find this sentence, but it looks somewhat improper to me. is this okay for us to make this kind of sentence?

"It is the works of art that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet that form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art."

in this sentence, i wonder why and how the two relative pronouns 'that' are used. in my opinion, i think it is correct use like this: It is the works of art that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet, and which form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art.
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[nq:1]while reading an essay about Tibetan Art, i happened to find this sentence, but it looks somewhat improper to me. ... these two princesses brought with them to Tibet, and which form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art.
Yhe original version is correct. A bit awkward, but correct. The antecedent of the first relative "that" is "works of art." The antecedent of the second relative "that" is "works of art that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet." The second "that" clause modifies an earlier structure that includes the first "that" clause. "It" is an expletive -- a place-holder -- and does not have an antecedent as such.

Your rewrite does not work, because it distorts the function of the two relative clauses. Both are definining (restrictive) clauses, and your rewrite converts the second to non-defining. But you cannot repair it by converting the second back to defining (and changing the relative back to "that") as long as you retain the and, because your version still would e use the second clause to modify a prior structure containing another relative clause, and when you separate the two as you have done you lose that modification of the first by the second.

I hope that you understand this, or that someone can say it more clearly.

-- Bob Lieblich Trying his best
[nq:1]while reading an essay about Tibetan Art, i happened to find this sentence, but it looks somewhat improper to me. ... that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet that form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art."
OK? Yes. Good? No.
in this sentence, i wonder why and how the two relative pronouns 'that' are used.

The first "that" represents "the works of art"; the second represents "the works of art that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet" (or you could say they both represent "works"). Compare:

The works of art that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet were seminal.

It is those works that form the sacred seeds of Tibetan art.

But that original, though technically correct, is not good writing: good writing would avoid the duplicated "that" by some using other casting to express the thought, and would avoid the useless repetition in "seeds of the origins"--something like:

These two princesses brought with them to Tibet the works that would become the sacred seeds of Tibetan art.
in my opinion, i think it is correct use like this: It is the works of art that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet, and which form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art.

No. The conjunctive "and" is not conjoining independent propositions. If it (with the correspondingly needless comma) is deleted, all you have is "It is the works of art that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet which form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art", in which nothing has been accomplished save to replace the desired "that" in a restrictive relative with "which", best used to mark nonrestrictive relatives.

-- Cordially, Eric Walker My opinions on English are available at http://owlcroft.com/english /
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[nq:1]while reading an essay about Tibetan Art, i happened to find this sentence, but it looks somewhat improper to me. ... these two princesses brought with them to Tibet, and which form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art.
Ok, since the two cheeseburger experts missed the point of your question altogether, and got it wrong, anyway, I'll have to answer it.

No, the sentence is incorrect. The "it" represents "(the thing) that forms the sacred seeds ~~", so 'form' should be in third person singular: 'forms'.

You can expect Abbott & Costello there to come up with all manner of silly arguments in defence of their error, but they can easily be ignored.

-- Mark Wallace -- For the intelligent approach to nasty humour, visit: The Anglo-American Humour (humor) Site http://earth.prohosting.com/mwal/ --
[nq:1]"It is the works of art that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet that form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art."
Two useful editorial guidelines: 1. When in doubt, cut it out. 2. Beware existential statements (it was X that, despite the fact that, and the like.) Thus:

"The works of art that these two princesses brought became the seeds of Tibetan art." ("Seeds of the origins" is redundant; sacred is doubtful because the art is what is sacred, not necessarily its seeds.)

-- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
[nq:2]while reading an essay about Tibetan Art, i happened to ... form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art.
Ok, since the two cheeseburger experts missed the point of your question altogether, and got it wrong, anyway, I'll have ... The "it" represents "(the thing) that forms the sacred seeds ~~", so 'form' should be in third person singular: 'forms'.

You have a bottomless fund of error, Mark. "It" at the start of the sentence is an expletive, a mere placeholder, and it takes a singular verb, here "is", without regard to the grammar of the rest of the sentence. It doesn't "represent" anything. It isn't even a pronoun. The substantive that governs "form" is the pronoun "that," which can be either singular or plural, depending on what its antecedent is. And its antecedent here is "the works (plural) of art," so it takes a plural verb: "form."
You can expect Abbott & Costello there to come up with all manner of silly arguments in defence of their error, but they can easily be ignored.

Not easily, fella. In fact, you are just plain wrong.

Don't bother to thank me.

-- Bob Lieblich Aka Abbott
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[nq:1]while reading an essay about Tibetan Art, i happened to find this sentence, but it looks somewhat improper to me. ... that these two princesses brought with them to Tibet that form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art."
I am just going to rewrite it and then discuss placement later:

*It is these works of art which the two princesses brought with them to Tibet which form a point of origin, the sacred seeds from which Tibetan aesthetic traditions spring forth.*

There we go.

Joanne
[nq:2]while reading an essay about Tibetan Art, i happened to ... form the sacred seeds of the origins of Tibetan art.
Ok, since the two cheeseburger experts missed the point of your question altogether, and got it wrong, anyway, I'll have ... to come up with all manner of silly arguments in defence of their error, but they can easily be ignored.

Wow. I'm impressed. You managed not only to be wrong twice in one reply, but to be offensively rude about it. It is a marvelous thing that you can make Eric seem like a fount of knowledge and sweet reason by comparison.

Richard R. Hershberger
[nq:1] in messagenews:...
Ok, since the two cheeseburger experts missed the point ... defence of their error, but they can easily be ignored.

Wow. I'm impressed. You managed not only to be wrong twice in one reply, but to be offensively rude about it. It is a marvelous thing that you can make Eric seem like a fount of knowledge and sweet reason by comparison. Richard R. Hershberger

Do I dare ask if he's off his lithium?

Joanne
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