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But none of them, when asked, would have said "I am an Italian". There were Venetians, Florentines, etc. but no Italians.
If we want to get into stuff like "Vergil was actually a Gaul", we can, of course.

No, thanks, that wasn't the idea,
Jan
PS But it is amusing to note that nothing 'Romain' exists in France. It is all 'Gallo-Romain'.
The holdings of the Bron(c)k family may once have been referred to as "Bronxland". But they passed into the hands ... article would have been used). In any case, no usage of "the Broncks" survived. The "the" is from the river.

What I don't get is why "the Bronx River" would have come from "the Bronck's river" rather than from "the Broncks' river". We know who "the Broncks" were, but who was "the Bronck"?
Looking at the MoA archive, I see that there's one hit (ca. 1920) that says that
He chose for his plantation a goodly tract bordering the quiet stream then and thereafter known as "Bronck's Kill"...

but that doesn't explain the "the". Unfortunately, I can't seem to get any of the other hits to display. (There are eight for "Bronck's" and one for "Broncks".)

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I would think Jews did most of the money lending ... or the Lombards. I'm hoping someone will follow this up.

Where do you think the Lombards lived? And 'Italians' didn't exist at the time.

I was distinguishing the various Italian tribes from the Lombards, as I wasn't sure whether the latter were still speaking a Germanic language at the time. I don't know about Dutch, but I know a number of German banking terms come from (some form of) Italian, eg Konto (account).
However, the point of inventing that banking and credit system was to make trade and travel over longer distances posssible. And most of that went to the Netherlands, then still mostly the southern half. Those Italian family banks set up branch offices in Flanders.

That sounds quite likely. What about Venice, Hamburg, Lisbon? Without knowing the date, I'm not sure which was top trading nation at the time - actually city might be more appropriate than nation.

Rob Bannister
I would think Jews did most of the money lending ... or the Lombards. I'm hoping someone will follow this up.

You are right of course, especially if you define "modern banking" as the development of banking that took place in ... double-entry bookkeeping. All we need to do is to take that as the defining feature of "modern banking", and presto!

I believe what prevented banking becoming established before (in Western countries) was the biblical restriction on usury, which is why the Jews could get away with it. How they got around this - whether in Lombardy or Florence - I don't know.

Rob Bannister
Maybe Dutch speakers said the equivalent of "going up to the Broncks'" you tell me if you can omit ... article would have been used). In any case, no usage of "the Broncks" survived. The "the" is from the river.

Cecil Adams did something on this a while ago
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2 248.html
Wouldn't it be kickass if the borough were named "The Aquahung" instead? JETLRO TUHH!!
JM
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What I don't get is why "the Bronx River" would have come from "the Bronck's river" rather than from "the Broncks' river". We know who "the Broncks" were, but who was "the Bronck"?

I think "Bronx" has to be seen as a singular possessive. Bron(c)k was, conceptually at least, a single person, one man, one landholder. The river was named for the landholder, not his family (and I don't even know if at the relevant time one would have spoken of the family as "the Broncks", leaving aside the Dutch vs. English issue).

So it's "Bronck's River" (or Broncks Kill), and over time maybe people forget the reason for the name, and, as with many other rivers, it gets a "the" before the name. Like the Chicago River.
I believe what prevented banking becoming established before (in Western countries) was the biblical restriction on usury, which is why the Jews could get away with it. How they got around this - whether in Lombardy or Florence - I don't know.

Manipulating exchange rates, I seem to remember learning in a European history class.
I'd always thought our relations were good, but one of ... all right. Could have simply been his personal view though.

Traditionaly relations with America and Americans have always been very friendly. The present adminstration however has succeeded in blowing that very much too pieces.

True in much of the world, sadly enough.
Charles
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There were several 19th century toponyms that had "Bronx" in them (Bronx Park, Bronx Road, the Bronx River, Bronxville, but the only one that used "the" was the river.

In the the procession of Stuyvesant's army into New Amsterdam in Knickerbocker's History of New York (1809), Irving describes "the Van Bummels, who inhabit the pleasant borders of the Bronx." I thought this book was where I first encountered "going up to the Broncks," as well, but I didn't manage to find it in flipping through it just now.

"Let's go and worship all the things that COULD be true." ¬R http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/cosmic \ Wayne Delia
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