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There's a scandal currently rocking the globe involving the London ... stainee) refer to ketchup as "ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?

Why shouldn't they? Also consider the person at the dry cleaner's, who might have asked for clarification of what the substance was.

"Ketchup" is what the British condiment's usually labelled, though other ketchups (mushroom, walnut, anchovy) are used as ingredients rather than condiments. The meaning of "sauce" and "ketchup" has to be understood according to context: "oyster sauce" is an ingredient in Anglo-Chinese cookery, "HP sauce" and many other more or less fruity "brown sauces" are essentially condiments. So are homemade sauces such as mint or apple, traditionally served with, respectively, lamb and pork as mustard or horseradish is with beef. Worcester sauce (the proper name "Worcestershire" is on the bottle but rarely spoken in full) is liquid like mushroom ketchup (more liquid, in fact), but is regularly used as both condiment and ingredient.
"Tomato sauce" commonly has the "ketchup" sense, as it's regarded as something used in the same way as HP sauce etc. A sauce for pasta could be called "tomato sauce", and in context that wouldn't be confused with ketchup, but more often it's distinguished by an English or Italian name depending on the other dominant ingredients: "tomato and garlic", "Arrabbiata" and so on. In a supermarket, the pasta or "cook-in" sauces are in a different department from the "condiment " sauces

So there is no consistent usage for either "sauce" or "ketchup" in BrE.

Alan Jones
I have a feeling that fewer Brits are calling tomato ketchup "tomato sauce" these days, because of the increasing awareness of what we might refer to as "genuine tomato sauce" in foreign cuisine.

Gotcha. That makes me wonder whether, 25 or 50 years ago (cf. Kojak Conjecture), something similar occurred in the US. We know that until the 1960s (at the earliest) it was standard practice for most Americans to serve spaghetti with either Heinz tomato ketchup (then called 'catsup' I believe) or Campbell's tomato soup. This was before the era of pre-made jarred pasta sauces (the ordinary name for which in AmE is "tomato sauce"). So was ketchup ever called "tomato sauce" in AmE, particularly when it was served in nominally Italian-inspired dishes? EMWTK. Coop, provide us with your recollections
please.
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There's a scandal currently rocking the globe involving the London ... stainee) refer to ketchup as "ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?

Because in BrE "ketchup" means "tomato ketchup" by default.

That doesn't explain why "tomato sauce" wasn't used. We've been led to believe that "tomato sauce" is the usual BrE term for what Americans call "ketchup".
The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call "(tomato) ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If ... is that a conscious Americanism of the sort that the Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=MK2114289E&news headline=ketchup e-mail scandal lawyer quits his job Richard Phillips, 36, was publicly humiliated after demanding £4 from his secretary to cover a cleaning bill after she accidentally spilt * tomato sauce* on his trousers.
Mr Phillips was at the centre of an embarrassing e-mail exchange after the secretary, Jenny Amner, accidentally squirted tomato ketchup on his trousers.
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art id=qw1119009962544B231&set id=1&click id=29 London - An email between a highly paid lawyer and a secretary over a * tomato sauce* stain has become the talk of legal circles in London, leaving the sender distinctly red-faced.
British media reported with glee the tale of Richard Phillips, who emailed the secretary to ask her to pay a £4 (about R48) dry-cleaning bill after she accidentally spilt *tomato sauce* on his trousers.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200506/s1395046.htm Sauce splash spat stains lawyer's reputation
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/story.jsp?story=648744 The most famous ketchup* stain in London has claimed its first victim. Richard Phillips, the City lawyer whose suit was soiled by the misdirected **tomato sauce*, has resigned from his position, it was announced yesterday.
http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/viewarticle.aspx?id=255954 RICHARD Phillips is the boss from hell who sent an e-mail to his secretary, demanding that she paid him £4 in order to have his trousers dry-cleaned after she had accidentally splashed a dash of * tomato sauce* on them.

Ray
The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans ... Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShowStory.asp?story=MK2114289E&news headline=ketchup e-mail scandal lawyer quits his job Richard Phillips, 36, was publicly humiliated after demanding £4 from his secretary ... £4 in order to have his trousers dry-cleaned after she had accidentally splashed a dash of * tomato sauce* on them.

Wow! But in the actual emails the two people used the term "ketchup", unless CNN misreported this. Maybe CNN did a Peter H.M.S. Brooks?
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US reverse-colonialism. Only the most refined viz., or ... missed a nuance, or are you having memoryproblems again, Richard?)

The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call"(tomato) ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If these people are using the term "ketchup", is that a conscious Americanism of thesort that the Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?

Others have answered, but, no, "ketchup" for "tomato ketchup" isn't generally perceived as an Americanism in present-day BrE (though it is one); I'm no longer sure about AusE, where "tomato sauce" had a longer undisputed reign.

Mike.
The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans call "(tomato) ketchup" seems to be called "tomato sauce". If ... is that a conscious Americanism of the sort that the Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?

I am willing to concede that British people may not be able to enter the US as easily and hassle-free as they should, but language should cross the water as freely as the wind. Language should be as flavorful - spicy, even - as we wish it to be. When we utter an idea or thought, the words used should be chosen to be as expressive as possible.
This idea of yours that there should be the same sort of embargo on words that there is on fruits and meats is both limiting and regressive. You've set yourself up as some sort of language beagle that sniffs out prohibited items and yaps at the finding.

We assumed the English language when this country was colonized, and there's no reason to stay with the English that was in common use in 1600s. We should be able to add to that language as it develops anywhere. In turn, the British should be able take up the words and terms that have developed here. Language cooks should be able to add spice to the stew on both sides of the water.
Any word that I have is free for the borrowing by any Brit, and I will continue to borrow from them. Your taste buds may be stultified, but mine are not.

Tony Cooper
Orlando FL
(Let's ignore the fact that there are no independent butcher stores outside of New York and a few other East ... barbershop (associated with Italian-Americans in some Eastern cities but with Norwegian-Americans in Seattle) is all but dead in most places.)

Balderdash!
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snip
So the fact that AmE uses the expression "the cleaners" indicates that we think of the cleaners as a plural, for some reason. So why don't we say "the cleaner"?

Because that's reserved for the person who comes in to dust and vacuum your house?

Cheers, Harvey
Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)
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