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That doesn't explain why "tomato sauce" wasn't used. We've been ... is the usual BrE term for what Americans call "ketchup".

Perhaps that's another misle.

It must be. I've never thought "ketchup" an AmE word. NSOED shows it as found first in the late 17th century, and notes "catsup" as a variant used in the US. "Tomato sauce" is a common BrE alternative, probably because it matches "brown sauce" or "HP sauce", in the company of which tomato ketchup is to be found in a "greasy spoon cafe" or indeed on my sideboard (where it rubs shoulders with Worcester sauce). Sauces of this condiment kind are often enjoyed with a UK cooked breakfast or a snack.

Alan Jones
Afterwards, I added the paste to the pork barbecue preparation I made yesterday, if anyone is curious.

You don't have to be curious to post here, but it helps. Matti

A good pork barbecue marinade should have a base of apple vinegar,molasses and brown surgar with spices added to taste but never any tomato.
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On 24 Jun 2005, Areff wrote snip Because that's reserved for the person who comes in to dust and vacuum your house?

The cleaner is the mob guy that gets rid of the body.

If you ever had to fire one for not pulling his weight, did you pay him his holiday entitlement?

David
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My experiences in Britain some years ago taught me that ... postwar foodstuff apparently of Continental 5C European (specifically Alpine?) origin.

Last month, driving down a Welsh mountainside, my wife and I simultaneously remarked "I'm feeling peckish". We rounded the next ... was talking about, so he explained, "Best - ******* - Bacon, Eggs, Sausage, Tomato". How common is that in BrE?

I never heard it before.
Whatever it is, we've adopted it, and will be having best for breakfast shortly.

David
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Did the same source tell you we have Maize Flakes for breakfast too?

My experiences in Britain some years ago taught me that British breakfasters eat either (a) fried eggs, bacon, sausage, toast, ... or some variation on that theme, or (b) "Muesli(x)", a postwar foodstuff apparently of Continental 5C European (specifically Alpine?) origin.

Toast. You missed toast. Probably with Marmite or marmalade. And children tend to have disgustingly sweet cereal.
Muesli is Swiss in origin, I think. I am eating some now. Bacon, eggs, sausage, etc, are highly suitable for farm workers, steel makers and dray men, but the sedentary programmer is inclined to pile on the stones if he breakfasts on these items. I usually just have toast with Marmite, or cereal.

David
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There's a scandal currently rocking the globe involving the London ... stainee) refer to ketchup as "ketchup" rather than "tomato sauce"?

If they're an international law firm they probably do business in Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia, where kechap comes from.

The word, yes, but not the tomato-based condiment, according to what I've read.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Ketchup is to tomato sauce what mustard is to mayonnaise.


Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
The nuance is that in BrE the condiment that Americans ... Omrud (Final Arbiter of British English Usage), say, finds alarming?

OK, I will pronounce. It is not and Americanism, conscious or otherwise. "ketchup" carries no overtone of US English. It's ... of these two options is chosen, in relation to origin or indeed class (which is likely a more common differentiator).

Indeed. I might add that AFAIK the labels on the bottles always say "Tomato Ketchup", not "Tomato Sauce", and always have done.

There. That's two alwayses, both guesswork. Come and get me.

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
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This was before the era of pre-made jarred pasta sauces (the ordinary name for which in AmE is "tomato sauce").

This is news to me. I am familiar with canned "tomato sauce", which is something on the order of crushed tomatoes, with much more liquid than tomato paste, but not much in the way of spices. I can't imagine anyone putting that on pasta directly. Ketchup, maybe but not for adults, surely. Kids will eat ketchup on anything.

However, knowing that Richard is never Dead Wrong (RINDW), I went out a-Googling to see what I could see and what I saw was a recipe for Tomato Sauce that included tomato sauce as an ingredient. Presuming it's not something like sourdough, where you need a starter pinched from the last batch, there must indeed be a use of the phrase in both senses, acceptable even in the same head-space somehow.
Not mine,though. If "pasta sauce" didn't exist as a phrase back in the day, it does now, and must surely have come into existence because both senses of tomato sauce could not peacefully coexist.

The recipe, by the way
(from ):

Tomato Sauce
2 tablespoons olive or vegetable oil
1 large onion, chopped
1 (15-ounce) can tomato sauce
1 (6-ounce) can tomato paste1/2 cup dry red wine

1 teaspoon dry oregano leaves
1 teaspoon dry basil leavesSalt to taste
1. Heat oil in a wide frying pan over medium heat; add onionand cook, stirring often, until softened, about 5 minutes.
2. Stir in tomato sauce, tomato paste, wine, oregano andbasil. Bring to a simmer; then simmer, uncovered, for 10 minutes. Season to taste with salt.
Makes about 4 cups sauce.
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