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I apologize for inflicting genealogical info on the group, as I know that it's usually only interesting to those most directly affected.

Have you posted anywhere a list of your New England surnames, so we might discover if we're cousins?
I've seen the comparison made, that the local Celts had about as much impact on the Anglo-Saxon language and culture as the American Indians did on the English settlers. That is, very little, beyond some placenames.

Although, getting back on topic, it is interesting that French did not supplant English, it merged with it. More or less.

Since French was more or less restricted to the aristocracy, the law, the well-educated and perhaps haute cuisine (the upper-class domain) and was never really spoken by the common people, it only gradually entered Old English to form what would later be called Middle English (dialects). And even nowadays, you can still make out how words from either origin mark class/register in English: for many things you can choose between a name of Germanic or Latin/French origin. The Germanic ones tend to be the simpler and more everyday expressions while those of French origin are often more sophisticated and more common in academic writing. broken vs. defunct
So, unsurprisingly, the fact that the Conquerors from Normandy spoke French didn't have much of an impact on the people outside of the aristocracy/cleric circles. It was more of a linguistic influence over the course of roughly 100 years. iirc.
Just my 2 cents.
Luca
Students: We have free audio pronunciation exercises.
<< (Ross Howard) A just-in-case Google on "history" + "victors" instead of "winners" brings up this: "The so-called lessons of ... is also a reported African proverb Until lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunters.[/nq]
Voltaire:
History is a pack of tricks we play on the dead.
(I am not sure of the correct wording, "bag of lies, bag of tricks" et cetera.)
I apologize for inflicting genealogical info on the group, as I know that it's usually only interesting to those most directly affected.

Have you posted anywhere a list of your New England surnames, so we might discover if we're cousins?

I will reply by e-mail.

Best Donna Richoux
(snip)

Do I feel impoverished... I don't spend a lot of ... have gotten ourselves into, and what we've lost without knowing.

I have the impression that you have kids, Donna, or at least one.

One.
Just out of curiosity what languages are you teaching them, living in furrin parts as you do?

What we speak at home is English. My daughter learned Dutch by being in Dutch schools all this time. I help her with her French sometimes; I actually think the French I learned in school in California was taught in a better way than the French taught in school here. She also had a couple of years of German in school.
I don't think I should say much more about this, as I try to respect my family's privacy and keep them out of the newsgroup as much as possible.
Best - Donna Richoux
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
Another anecdote. Some 25 years ago I was trying to ... still answer the phone and sent all my correspondence in English.

I recall a Greek PhD student all of whose university education had been conducted in English. Her English was passable, ... to talk about it in Greek. Although a native Greek speaker, she simply didn't have the vocabulary to do it.

That reminds me of a quote from Dryden that I was planning to post to another thread (the one about whether English prescriptivists actually argued that English should conform to Latin rules, or whether this was just a charge leveled by their critics). H.W. Fowler in "A Dictionary of Modern English Usage" quoted Dryden as saying,
"I am often put to a stand in considering whether
what I write be the idiom of the tongue, . . . &
have no other way to clear my doubts but by
translating my English into Latin."
Fowler goes on to speculate what this meant for prepositions at the end of sentences, but I wonder if Dryden simply meant that for certain subjects, he simply could think about the subject more clearly in Latin than in English...
More context? I see that James Russell Lowell quoted more of the same passage in a Gutenberg text:
http://www.gutenberg.net/etext05/7ambk10.txtThat (Dryden's) style was no easy acquisition (though, of course, the aptitude was innate) he himself tells us. In his dedication of "Troilus and Cressida" (1679), where he seems to hint at the erection of an Academy, he says that "the perfect knowledge of a tongue was never attained by any single person. The Court, the College, and the Town must all be joined in it. And as our English is a composition of the dead and living tongues, there is required a perfect knowledge, not only of the Greek and Latin, but of the Old German, French, and Italian, and to help all these, a conversation with those authors of our own who have written with the fewest faults in prose and verse.

But how barbarously we yet write and speak your Lordship knows, and I am sufficiently sensible in my own English.(27) For I am often put to a stand in considering whether what I write be the idiom of the tongue, or false grammar and nonsense couched beneath that specious name of Anglicism , and have no other way to clear my doubts but by translating my English into Latin, and thereby trying what sense the words will bear in a more stable language."
It looks to me like he is concerned more here with sense, meaning, or logic than with trifling grammatical idiom. There hadn't been much scholarly prose in English before his time (1631-1700), so some of the words and phrases needed just didn't exist or weren't well known.

Best Donna Richoux
<< (Ross Howard) A just-in-case Google on "history" + "victors" ... victors. History is written by the survivors." Max Lerner[/nq]
Maddening how the Web is full of people repeating each other's (purported) quotes, and none of them saying which piece of writing it came from.
Let's see, Max Lerner
born 1902, Minsk, Russia, died 1992, New York, N.Y. ...  original name Mikhail Lerner.   American educator, author, and syndicated columnist who was an influential spokesman for liberal political and economic views. Lerner immigrated to the United States with his parents in 1907...
My guess is that this is a post-WWII formulation of the concept, not pre-war, because of the way "survivors" carries a different impact. But that's just a guess.
I can find no date for that, but he was ... the victors." - Ernst Toller, German poet and dramatist (1893-1939).

I found the above repeated word-for-word a number of places. No one mentioned where Toller said it.
Said to have been said in 1935.

Aha, according to a web biography, Toller had been expelled from Nazi Germany by then and was in London. His autobiography "I Was a German" was published in New York and London in 1934, and he continued to write articles for English publications. In 1936 he went to New York where he wrote plays and screenplays until his suicide in 1939. So I'd guess the
1935 date would refer to one of the articles.

So now we have Max Lerner, Ernst Toller and Walter Benjamin as possible sources.
There is also a reported African proverb Until lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunters.

Nice. Someone quotes it at a 2001 African leadership conference:

Drowned out by what they term "Wall Street's Western-accented bray," Africa and Malaysia are resorting to one of the engines of globalization the Internet to create a news service that gives an alternative view of events in their countries. ...

"When there are no historians of lions, history will glorify the hunters," said an adviser to Sudanese President Omar Hassan al-Bashir, who identified himself as Suleiman.
Voltaire: History is a pack of tricks we play on the dead. (I am not sure of the correct wording, "bag of lies, bag of tricks" et cetera.)

Someone in the Humanist Discussion Group posted, about that:

This is from a letter (*Voltare's Correspondence edited by Theodore Besterman,* vol. xxxi, Gen`eve, 1958, p. 47-48, no. 6456) addressed to Pierre Robert Le Cornier de Cideville by Voltaire on 9 f`evrier
1757. It begins:

"Mon cher et ancien ami je souhaitte que le fatras dont je vous ay surcharg/e vous amuse. J'ay vu un temps o`u vous n'aimiez gu`eres l'histoire. Ce n'est apr`es tout qu'un ramas de tracasseries qu'on fait aux morts. . . ."
Checking the historical dictionaries, "ramas" meant a collection, and "tracasserie" could mean a malicious process, chicanery, or bad incident. Maybe idiomatically it added up to "a pack of tricks we play" but I don't know.

Best Donna Richoux
Voltaire: History is a pack of tricks we play on ... correct wording, "bag of lies, bag of tricks" et cetera.)

Someone in the Humanist Discussion Group posted, about that: This is from a letter (*Voltare's Correspondence edited by Theodore Besterman,* ... chicanery, or bad incident. Maybe idiomatically it added up to "a pack of tricks we play" but I don't know.

Checking Seldes's The Great Quotations (a nice collection, but maddeningly hard to use to actually find anything), he quotes Voltaire in Jeannot et Colin as saying "Ancient histories, as one of our wits has said, are but fables that have been agreed upon".

Strangely, Seldes attributes the line itself ("What is history but a fable agreed upon?") to Napoleon, who was nineteen when Voltaire died.

Disraeli has a similar sentiment (unfortunately without a citation):

All great events have been distorted, most of the important causes concealed, some of the principal characters never appear, and all who figure are so misunderstood and misrepresented that the result is a complete mystification. If the history of England be ever written by one who has the knowledge and the courage, the world would be astonished.
And, of course, there's Henry Ford's succinct "History is bunk" (from testimony given at a 1919 libel case).
Checking the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations , Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881) wrote ( Frederick the Great ) "History is a distillation of rumour". William Stubbs wrote in an 1871 letter,

The Reverend Canon Kingsley cries
History is a pack of lies.

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1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >read in a comic book, what can youPalo Alto, CA 94304 >believe?!

(650)857-7572
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Sure, "swamp and marsh," though they would say "bayou," the Bayou LaFourche, which was a tame and tidy canal when I saw it.

My cousin's grandfather was from Labadieville, which is on Bayou LaFourche about halfway between Thibodeaux and Napoleonville. You can't get much deeper into Cajun territory than that.

John Varela
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