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Taking as given that a country actually has an offence ... a bad example, even if I knew about it properly.)

There is a very interesting web page about treason and traitors, I found it surprisingly informative.

Yes, it is: thanks. But not entirely clear on our question. It starts, as you know, with "In law, treason is the crime of disloyalty to one's nation"; and goes on to quote only one definition from Oran: that definition does refer to the citizen aiding a foreign enemy, but it might have been helpful to mention what the others are. The page's opening definition strikes me as only the common acceptation of the meaning, and doesn't sound like an "in law" definition at all: I doubt if a lawyer could have written it in that unexpanded form, as it leaves its terms dangerously undefined.
All the other things it says can be taken to apply to anybody, of whatever citizenship.
Mike.

I became acquainted with Ms. Kempner about a dozen years ago when I used her first name in a crossword puzzle I sold to the Sunday Washington Post, cluing it "filmmaker Kempner."

Interesting: do you do British-style cryptic ones, too?

Mike.
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
snip
To be guilty of treason, a person must owe allegience. That includes the following groups: British citizens, wherever they may ... definition of treason in the constitution is taken from the Treason Act 1351, which is still the applicable law here.

I take it that the Australian citizen in Guantanamo Bay wouldn't fit any of those categories of owing allegiance to the US not being a citizen, nor "within the realm" or "temporarily absent" when captured.

Interesting thread.

Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 22 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)


There is a very interesting web page about treason and traitors. I found it surprisingly informative.

Yes, it is: thanks. But not entirely clear on our question. It starts, as you know, with "In law, treason ... its terms dangerously undefined. All the other things it says can be taken to apply to anybody, of whatever citizenship.

I agree with your comment, Mike, that the web page is not clear on the question being discussed. I was hoping someone would spot something on the page that I might have missed! This would be an excellent thread for Bob Lieblich to contribute to as his opinion would be extremely useful.

Bob L.: Does one have to be a citizen of a country to commit treason against that country?

Christopher ('CJ')
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Bob L.: Does one have to be a citizen of a country to commit treason against that country?

I'm not Liebs, but I think the general answer must be "no", if only because, as has been pernted out here before, "citizenship" is narrower than "subject" or, to use the USese euphemism, "national". The US (federal) treason statute sez:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them (sic) or adheres to their (sic) enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason..
18 U.S.C. s 2381.

Nationals owe allegiance to the United States, even if they aren't citizens. OTOH, you, CJ, owe no allegiance to these United States.
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Bob L.: Does one have to be a citizen of a country to commit treason against that country?

I'm not Liebs, but I think the general answer must be "no", if only because, as has been pernted out ... allegiance to the United States, even if they aren't citizens. OTOH, you, CJ, owe no allegiance to these United States.

Precisely, RF. I have British citizenship. So, what you're saying is, no matter what I were (hypothetically!) to do to the US, it could NOT be considered an act of 'treason'.

Right?

Christopher ('CJ')
(Change 3032 to 77 for e-mail)
Nationals owe allegiance to the United States, even if they aren't citizens. OTOH, you, CJ, owe no allegiance to these United States.

Precisely, RF. I have British citizenship. So, what you're saying is, no matter what I were (hypothetically!) to do to the US, it could NOT be considered an act of 'treason'. Right?

Yes, assuming that there's no other reason why you should "owe allegiance to the US" (and I don't see how there could be).
(But suppose, not under coercion, CJ pledged allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic For Which It Stands. Would that cause CJ to "owe allegiance" to the US? I don't think so, since the pledging of allegiance is a purely symbolic and legally meaningless sort of act, I think.)
Precisely, RF. I have British citizenship. So, what you're saying ... it could NOT be considered an act of 'treason'. Right?

Yes, assuming that there's no other reason why you should "owe allegiance to the US" (and I don't see how ... don't think so, since the pledging of allegiance is a purely symbolic and legally meaningless sort of act, I think.)

I was just wondering could the type of visa CJ has that allows him to be in the USA have any effect on this?

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
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Yes, assuming that there's no other reason why you should ... purely symbolic and legally meaningless sort of act, I think.)

I was just wondering could the type of visa CJ has that allows him to be in the USA have any effect on this?

I wouldn't think so aren't visas simply documents that say "you, alien, have the right to enter this country under these conditions"?
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