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Since we're dealing with words now pronounced with a schwa ... it, because the closed-captioning showed the pronunciation as being "goil."

Which is exactly what it was. A New Yorkism which fortuitously rhymed with "spoil".

Nothing fortuitous about it. In that dialect, "oi" & "ir" were leveled to a wonderful diphthong (in the old IPA alphabet it was represented by a 3 with a horn on the right, followed by I) that AFAIK does not appear elsewhere in English. To speakers of other dialects it sounded as if they were interchanging /OI/ & /@r/ (when I was little, in California, we mocked New Yorkers by reciting "De goils in New Joisey boin erl in deir foinaces"), but it was actually the same vowel all the way thru.
I use the past tense because I think that dialect has died out. I had the opportunity to observe its decay on the Long Island Rail Road. When I moved to Long Island in 1964 I might hear the conductor announce "Massapequa, Massapequa Park, Amityville, Copiague, Lindenhoist, & Babylon", but by the time I left in 1971 it was mostly "Lindenhurst" the way the rest of us do it.

Joe Fineman joe (Email Removed)
Nothing fortuitous about it. In that dialect, "oi" & "ir" were leveled to a wonderful diphthong (in the old IPA ... goils in New Joisey boin erl in deir foinaces"), but it was actually the same vowel all the way thru.

This is probably not entirely accurate, but see past AUE postings on the subject.
I use the past tense because I think that dialect has died out.

You can still hear sufficiently old speakers (born before 1939 at the latest) using (R) for /oI/, but it's always hard to tell whether this is supposed to be jocular. As for (V"I) for stressed /R/ (followed by a consonant), you can hear this in sufficiently old speakers (born before
1930) use this pronunciation. I don't believe that there are speakers whoactually merge the two things.
I had the opportunity to observe its decay on the Long Island Rail Road. When I moved to Long Island ... but by the time I left in 1971 it was mostly "Lindenhurst" the way the rest of us do it.

Back in 1985-1987, the height of my taking the LIRR and thus spending time in Penn Station, I heard it as something like (hV@rst) "huh-errst" that's the modern Long Island accent (also typical of northeastern Queens).
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Why don't the pointy things come out?

I don't know what "pointy things" you mean. If it refers to something I have snipped, I apologize, but I wouldn't have known what to keep.
Anyhow, I would like very much to see some sound graphs, rather than dictionary pronunciations. Without going into ASCII phonetics, ... sound. To my ear (which has been immersed in English since I was six) "manner" and "manor" are quite different.

To me they are identical. Not even the slightest hint of a difference.
As different as "terrier" and "terror".

Two words pronounced very differently, yes.
Do you not hear a difference between "terror" and "tearer"?

Absolutely not.
Is there no distinction in the final vowel of "painter" and "actor"?

Not for me, no.
Of "killer" and "suitor"?

No.
Of "avert" and "abort"?

Yes, certainly. I doubt you would be able to find any native speaker of English who did not make a distinction between the vowels of those words.
If indeed there is no longer a distinction I have wasted a great deal of time trying to cope with what I thought was the English language.

You aren't forced to make any changes. I figure that it might be worthwhile to make changes if someone is mocking your pronunciation, as happened to one of my teachers, originally from Texas, when he came to Decatur, Illinois to go to college. He made the decision to change his accent and did so.
I've never changed my accent deliberately, but I have made changes to my vocabulary. For example, I no longer use "oleo" to mean "margarine" or "soda" to mean "pop."

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
I suspect that the sound files M-W uses for "manner" ... I have access to does not work with .wav files.

Sigh. The Windows generation, eh? What's wrong with FC? c:\fc manner01.wav manor001.wav /b Comparing files manner01.wav and MANOR001.WAV 004: 66 12 005: 17 18

00B9: 86 84 00BA: 86 84 ... and so on for abou 5,500 differences noted. David == replace usenet with the

I'm from before the Windows generation, actually, having owned an Atari 600XL, Atari 800XL, and a Commodore 64, programming in BASIC for many years before I got an IBM-compatible machine. I had that MS-DOS machine for a short time before someone gave me a Windows 3.1 computer, so I never got to know MS-DOS really well.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Since we're dealing with words now pronounced with a schwa ... it, because the closed-captioning showed the pronunciation as being "goil."

Which is exactly what it was. A New Yorkism which fortuitously rhymed with "spoil". Izzy

That is emphatically what it was *not!* The pronunciation was clearly (gIrl), with the vowel in "sit," and so had nothing to do with the "bird/boid," "spoil/sperl" distinction (and I am also aware that in the original dialect, "bird" and "spoil" were pronounced with the identical diphthong, which was misinterpreted as two different sounds by people who did not speak that dialect). The error the closed-captioner made was in thinking it was a case of that dialectal difference, when it involved instead an entirely different dialectal difference.

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
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Which is exactly what it was. A New Yorkism which fortuitously rhymed with "spoil". Izzy

That is emphatically what it was *not!* The pronunciation was clearly (gIrl), with the vowel in "sit," and so had ... was in thinking it was a case of that dialectal difference, when it involved instead an entirely different dialectal difference.

"Spring is sprung
The grass is ris.
I wonder where the boidie is.
The boid is on the wing?
Ain't that absoid!
I allus thought the wing was on the boid."
Izzy
...
}> I had
}> the opportunity to observe its decay on the Long Island Rail Road. }> When I moved to Long Island in 1964 I might hear the conductor }> announce "Massapequa, Massapequa Park, Amityville, Copiague, }> Lindenhoist, & Babylon", but by the time I left in 1971 it was mostly }> "Lindenhurst" the way the rest of us do it.
}
} Back in 1985-1987, the height of my taking the LIRR and thus spending time } in Penn Station, I heard it as something like (hV@rst) "huh-errst" } that's the modern Long Island accent (also typical of northeastern } Queens).
I got off that line at Freeport back in the sixties, but I don't recall hearing anything but ...(hR:st).
Huntington is north of Amityville, which is not only the site of the Horror, but also the original "Amity". I lived on Freeport's South Grove Street, but I think they later renamed it to Guy Lombardo Boulevard after one of my neighbors. Huntington and Babylon are the two towns at the western end of Suffolk County (The Island Proper).

R. J. Valentine
Strange that not one single person, either American or British, has so far agreed with you.

Then, like Coop, you need to practice your reading skills. The opposing camp is comprised of Pat No Ears Durkin and his sidekick, Ray Bookworm Wise. Are you signing up with them or with those of us with good ears?

Sorry, Charles, but I'll have to go with those for whom they're homophones. There's a reason that "to the manner born" is more often (Google 47,900:12,400) rendered as "to the manor born". Random House's "Word of the Day" column says
Since the "manor" variant is perfectly sensible (more sensible in this meaning than the "manner" version, in fact) and is phonetically identical to the Shakespearean original, it is no surprise that this has become widespread.
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990721

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >If to "man" a phone implies handing
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >it over to a person of the malePalo Alto, CA 94304 >gender, then to "monitor" it

(650)857-7572 > Rohan Oberoi

http://www.kirshenbaum.net /
Site Hint: Check out our list of pronunciation videos.
Now for my Holy Grail: I want something like this ... of the same song.. Anybody heard of anything like this?...r

I've heard that it's what they call "an open research problem".

I believe that to be the case. Nothing like that appears to have been mentioned in similar work on recognizing similarity in MIDI files in

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~michaelm/postscripts/alenex2001.pdf

Most of the work I've seen on file similarity detection wouldn't seem to be applicable.

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >I need to get a new collander. My
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >old one has holes in it.Palo Alto, CA 94304
(650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net /
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