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Then, like Coop, you need to practice your reading skills. ... with them or with those of us with good ears?

Sorry, Charles, but I'll have to go with those for whom they're homophones.

This is disturbing news. You might want to take Izzy's test to see how many you get 'right'.
There's a reason that "to the manner born" is more often (Google 47,900:12,400) rendered as "to the manor born". Random ... version, in fact) and is phonetically identical to the Shakespearean original, it is no surprise that this has become widespread.

Proving, once again, that no dictionary is perfect.
Charles suggested that I take your test, so
To my ear (which has been immersed in English since I was six) "manner" and "manor" are quite different. As different as "terrier" and "terror".

For me that's a difference in number of syllables (three vs. two).
Do you not hear a difference between "terror" and "tearer"?

No, or at least not unless I'm trying to emphasize a difference (as when correcting someone who misunderstood.
He's just a paper terror.
He's just a paper tearer.
would be pronounced identically by me.
Is there no distinction in the final vowel of "painter" and "actor"?

Same story.
Of "killer" and "suitor"?

Same.
Of "avert" and "abort"?

Those are different. There the vowels carry stress and are clearly different.
If indeed there is no longer a distinction I have wasted a great deal of time trying to cope with what I thought was the English language.

Sorry about that.

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >To find the end of Middle English,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >you discover the exact date andPalo Alto, CA 94304 >time the Great Vowel Shift took
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Do you not hear a difference between "terror" and "tearer"?

No, or at least not unless I'm trying to emphasize a difference (as when correcting someone who misunderstood. He's just a paper* terror. He's just a *paper tearer. would be pronounced identically by me.

That's because you're MIMIM. "Tearer" has the 'Mary' vowel, "terror" has the 'merry' vowel.
No, or at least not unless I'm trying to emphasize ... just a paper tearer. would be pronounced identically by me.

That's because you're MIMIM. "Tearer" has the 'Mary' vowel, "terror" has the 'merry' vowel.

I don't doubt it for an instant. (Of course, the same is true for me, linked by the fact that "Mary" has the "merry" vowel.) The assertion seemed to be being made that the second syllable differed. I guess that it might, conditioned on the difference in the first syllable.

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >So when can we quit passing laws and
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >raising taxes? When can we say ofPalo Alto, CA 94304 >our political system, "Stick a fork

http://www.kirshenbaum.net /
That's because you're MIMIM. "Tearer" has the 'Mary' vowel, "terror" has the 'merry' vowel.

I don't doubt it for an instant. (Of course, the same is true for me, linked by the fact that ... being made that the second syllable differed. I guess that it might, conditioned on the difference in the first syllable.

Now that you have brought up "Mary" "marry" "merry" I suppose that explains it.
To my ear (and tongue) the three are quire distinct, as are "manner" and "manor".
Just another dispute over dialect, not English.
Izzy
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Not for me. But the absolute final vowel is the ... just when you think you're getting somewhere, we change it.

I think that is an excellent definition of "wasted time". Let me try one last pair: "Advertiser" vs "Agitator". Any difference? I delude myself that they are quite distinct. Izzy

I expect you won't be too surprised if I say that to me they have the same last vowel. The *Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary* ( www.m-w.com ) shows ( @ r ) (schwa plus 'r') as the last vowel for "agitator."

I did manage to find one word ending in an "or" representing the suffix which has the same function as the suffix "er" and which has a variant pronunciation which involves some sort of "o" sound and which is used approximately as often as the variants using a schwa:
(quote)
Main Entry: Re=B7al=B7tor
Pronunciation: 'rE(-&)l-t&r, -"tor, =F7'rE-l&t&r also rE'al-t&r Function: collective mark
used for a real estate agent who is a member of the National Association of Realtors
(end quote)
In ASCII IPA, those pronunciations are
(' r i ( @ ) l t @ r), -(,tOr), =F7(' r i l @ t @ r) also (r i ' & l t @ r)
(I've placed spaces between the symbols to avoid them being munged when displayed on Google Groups because of the at-signs.)

Note that the (,tOr) pronunciation has a secondary accent, which may have helped it to keep the pronunciation of the "o."

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA=20
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Not for me. But the absolute final vowel is the ... just when you think you're getting somewhere, we change it.

I think that is an excellent definition of "wasted time". Let me try one last pair: "Advertiser" vs "Agitator". Any difference? I delude myself that they are quite distinct. Izzy

I expect you won't be too surprised if I say that to me they have the
same last vowel. The *Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary* ( www.m-w.com
) shows ( @ r ) (schwa plus 'r') as the last vowel for "agitator."
I did manage to find one word ending in an "or" representing the suffix
which has the same function as the suffix "er" and which has a variant
pronunciation which involves some sort of "o" sound and which is used
approximately as often as the variants using a schwa:
(quote)
Main Entry: Re·al·tor
Pronunciation: 'rE(-&)l-t&r, -"tor, ÷'rE-l&t&r also rE'al-t&r
Function: collective mark
used for a real estate agent who is a member of the National Association of Realtors
(end quote)
In ASCII IPA, those pronunciations are
(' r i ( @ ) l t @ r), -(,tOr), ÷(' r i l @ t @ r) also (r i ' & l t
@ r)
(I've placed spaces between the symbols to avoid them being munged when
displayed on Google Groups because of the at-signs.)

Note that the (,tOr) pronunciation has a secondary accent, which may
have helped it to keep the pronunciation of the "o."

Well, that's one out of eleven.
Perhaps I need to have my ears examined.
Izzy
Well, that's one out of eleven. Perhaps I need to have my ears examined.

As an invited guest, I'd have to agree that you might be wise to examine you ears.
Alternatively, if you are in thrall to 'Izzy', then you might consider moving ountries.

"They cooked him on the Nine Stane Rig
And a grand brothe they made on't,
And had his gear and beasts awa'
His good wife and his daughters twa,
He, 'twas salt tae the broth they made on't.
- Scotch ballad, quoted by George MacDonald Fraser in 'The Candlemass Road' * TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
I don't doubt it for an instant. (Of course, the ... it might, conditioned on the difference in the first syllable.

Now that you have brought up "Mary" "marry" "merry" I suppose that explains it. To my ear (and tongue) the three are quire distinct, as are "manner" and "manor".

Yes. All five have a different sound to them. Do only Easterners realize this, Richard?
Just another dispute over dialect, not English.

Yes, but anyone can speak English; a person's dialect says something about the person.
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