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Perhaps I should add that I also pronounce "poor, pore, pour and paw" the same way, which is not typical of most English dialects.

I've got the middle two "pore" and "pour" the same (/Or/). "Poor" is /Ur/ (or perhaps /ur/; I don't think I distinguish). "Paw" is /O/.
I don't think we're talking about what you can hear here, so much as what people actually say.

The distinctions that you can hear are largely those you make. If somebody makes a distinction you don't, you probably won't be able to hear it.

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >If to "man" a phone implies handing
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >it over to a person of the malePalo Alto, CA 94304 >gender, then to "monitor" it

(650)857-7572 > Rohan Oberoi

http://www.kirshenbaum.net /
In which case all this pronunciation protestation you've been doing ... Where did you learn to make a comment "to" anythinbg?

"Patients" "Patience" For me the first ends in an "uh", the second in an "eh"/ Am I some kind of freak? Izzy

Sorry! I fouled up the attributions and had you commenting 'to'; that locution would not make you a freak, but in any case you did not make the remark.
However, you turn out to have learned English in a rhotic environment, so even if you are not (irrelevantly) MIMIM (are you?) your detection of a difference in the sounds of 'manner' and 'manor' becomes understandble. But your insistance that everybody should hear a 'neith"e"r n"o"r' pattern is not understandble.
The issue with Patience/Patients is the "t" in the latter word. But you knew that, you wicked fellow.
Students: Are you brave enough to let our tutors analyse your pronunciation?
I think I am finished with this thread. Despite my hinterlandishness, I am, like Charles, now all at sea.

I'm done with it too, Ears: it's getting tiresome. In summation, I'll say that while Izzy and I may have a degree of discrimination, expansiveness, and beauty in our pronunciations, along with being able to easily express subtlety of meaning with them, in no way does that mean ours is somehow superior to that found in IrkE, DurkinE, or even WiseE. We each have our ways, and so be it.
Geez, you NawShaw fancy-pants silvertails! Ut's "Stry-ya".

What say we just leave it at "Oz"?

Aw c'mon: surely we can find a lot more abusive term than that for the place...

Cheers, Harvey
Canada for 30 years; S England since 1982.
(for e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van)
"Patients" "Patience" For me the first ends in an "uh", the second in an "eh"/ Am I some kind of freak? Izzy

Sorry! I fouled up the attributions and had you commenting 'to'; that locution would not make you a freak, but ... understandble. The issue with Patience/Patients is the "t" in the latter word. But you knew that, you wicked fellow.

Please read more carefully. It is the final vowel.

Izzy
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This has gone on for a while, but this last example is extraordianary.
"Poor", "Pore" and "Pour" are to my possibly eccentric ears quite distinct.
"Poor" and "Pour" are close, but definitely not identical. The upper lip is lowered for "Poor".
We keep discussing this in words; what we need are sound graphs.

Izzy
So, tomorrow, I'm going to marry merry Mary, the Tudor tooter tutor.

I distinguish marry/merry/Mary, but Tudor/tooter/tutor are the same for me.
As to the PIP (Areff's acronym for "Pen is Pin"),

Actually, PIP stands for "pin is pen". Same meaning, though.
I am a lifelong Wisconsin English speaker, whatever that means to anyone. (I think Areff has doubts about the Midwesternness of Ohio,

Absolutely not. Despite what Jerry might think, Ohio is the quintessential Midwestern state.
but is definite about the Midwesternness of Connecticut English.)

For interior western/central Connecticut speech, yes. Coastal and far-eastern Connecticut speech is not Midwestern, and is more akin to Long Island and Rhode Island.
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I disagree with you about proper names. While we do give some deference to a person's pronunciation of his own name (I recently heard a bit of trivia concerning an actress whose name was spelled "Dana" but who pronounced it "Donna") such deference should not extend to such matters as the pronunciation of "r," of "oo" versus "yoo," of the flap versus a "t" sound, and certain other pronunciation differences.

For example, although Tuesday Weld's birth name was not Tuesday it was Susan her family called her Tuesday since she was a very little girl. What should you or I call her the pronunciation she herself used (and note, she may have changed her pronunciation of it when she became an actress) or the pronunciation *we* would give to the word "Tuesday." The first strikes me as absurd as an English person pronouncing "Nicaragua" in a quasi-Spanish fashion when speaking English.

Ignoring the other pronunciation variants possible with "Tudor," I would never pronounce "Tudor" with a first syllable rhyming with "tyoo."

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
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