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http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/chconstpages.htm

If these are not correct, why? What do they mean?
1. If my skills in estimating and managing IT projects had have been that bad, I would have fired myself a few times...
2. If my skills in estimating and managing IT projects would have been that bad, I would have fired myself a few times...

Thanks.
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You're joking, Jack, aren't you? I've seen your posts, and your English is certainly good enough to answer your own question, isn't it?

You know that there's no tense with "had have" in English!
If these are not correct, why? What do they mean?
1. If my skills in estimating and managing IT projects had have been that bad, I would have fired myself a few times...


Perfectly correct but not as written, Jack. This is a phonological aspect that occurs in the spoken language. It's always a contracted form,

"hadda"; If I hadda been there,

I believe that it adds the same sense of importance, of extra emphasis, to this structure that adds to some past tense actions, for example;

The President has been shot.

Darn, I've broken a nail. I just had these done.

There are other theories on why this occurs in speech, but the important thing to remember is that it DOES occur. It has a meaning in English speech to English speakers. In order for it to be correct, it doesn't have to meet the standards of SWE. Those standards are for, what else, written English.

For another viewpoint, read the following;

http://ehlt.flinders.edu.au/deptlang/fulgor/volume1i1/papers/fennell.pdf

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Yet another viewpoint.

9. How does one explain the common usage of “If it hadda happened yesterday”—which has formal parallels in French and some kinds of German. There is a scientific answer.

http://www.orlapubs.com/AL/L86.html

>>>>>>>>

This site also addresses a much broader issue; one I've often raised here at this forum.
There's a 'scientific answer' for scabies. That doesn't make it something you want to catch.

For further strange thoughts on 'had have': Would have.....Had have....???

MrP
I'm very sorry. I had a typo. Please excuse me.

http://mthobby.pcperfect.com/ch601/chconstpages.htm

If these are not correct, why? What do they mean?
1. If my skills in estimating and managing IT projects had been that bad, I would have fired myself a few times...
2. If my skills in estimating and managing IT projects would have been that bad, I would have fired myself a few times...

Thanks. I apologize again. I'll be more careful.
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Hello Jack

Don't worry about typos. They take us down some interesting byways.

#1 is correct. The speaker is saying, jocularly: 'bad IT management skills >>> firing myself. However, I did not fire myself. Therefore my IT management skills weren't bad'.

#2 is an incorrect version of #1. In your 'if' statement, the 'if' sets the condition for the second clause; the 'would have' in the second clause expresses the unreal consequences of that condition.

So if you put 'would have' in your 'if' clause, you're trying both to set a condition with 'if', and to express the consequences of a condition with 'would have'. This is not possible.

In effect, instead of 'If X, then Y', you're saying 'If then X, then Y'.

MrP
Re: scabies.

Oh sweet Jesus! I'm rolling on the floor! I have got tears in my eyes from laughing so hard. You are outdoing yourself with each new post, Mr. P.

Emotion: smile Emotion: smile Emotion: smile
JTT: I finally got around to reading the article. The author himself calls it a "proposal" in one place, and in another, an attempt at an explanation. At one point he suggests that the phenomenon in question happens for some reason or another.

Any of us on this forum can and do speculate in this way, propose explanations, and realize that certain linguistic phenomena happen for some reason or another.

I must say you are stretching the meaning of "science" by calling this "a scientific answer"!

CJ
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