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this is about structures set up by "not" collocated with "until".

a context may go like this:

as per a contract, A is to sell a cargo to B and A is supposed to delivere the cargo to B prior to 1 Jan. 2005 but failed to do that even after the day 1 Jan. 2005. such being the case, can it be said:

"A did not delivere the cargo to B until 1 Jan. 2005. "

i doubt it is true because it means to me that the cargo was delivered on the day 1 Jan. 2005. and i don't think "not until " is applicable here.

to me, "A did not delivere the cargo to B even after 1 Jan. 2005" should serve the purpose correctly.

by the way, does "A failed to delivere the cargo to B until 1 Jan. 2005 " fit in the circumstance?

tks a lot.
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Comments  
Hi, Vincent,
The following is my personal opinion.

To me, until suggests continuity. It sounds as if A had to secure repeated deliveries of cargo to B until Jan 1. Therefore in this case I would use by: A did not/failed to deliver the cargo to B by Jan 1 (as agreed).

If you want to stress that A has not delivered the cargo yet, though the deadline was Jan 1, the sentence you suggests (A did not deliver the cargo to B even after 1 Jan. 2005) is fine to me.

Cheers!
tks again, Meche. Emotion: smile

yeah. "by" should be a good word to remember.

but i again found difference in the way of thinking by a Chinese. u see, when A failed to deliver the cargo by 1 Jan. 2005, he was very likely to do that someday after 1 Jan. 2005 rather than on 1 Jan. 2005. in such event, a Chinese always intend to stress the degree of A's error by saying that A did not deliver the cargo EVEN AFTER 1 Jan. 2005 whilst as u guys see it, to say by 1 Jan. 2005 is fine and enough. that's why i'm always slow at employment of BY.

don't u find that interesting.
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Oh, it surely is an interesting point. I often think about how culture affects people's perceptions, understandings and - of course - language, which reflects all this. It is not only the Chinese who think differently. I think you can come across this phenomenon quite often in these forums.

BTW, I wonder how it is correct to say: IN / ON / AT the forums?
It seems every culture/language has its own way of phrasing that concept.
The French, for example, use, "... did not ... before [point in time]" where the English say, "... did not ... until [point in time]". Pieanne can probably confirm.

"until" says that the delivery did (finally!) take place at the point in time mentioned after "until".
"by" says that the delivery took place after the point in time mentioned after "by", and may suggest that the delivery has not yet taken place even long after that point in time has passed.

CJ
Oh, yes, CalifJim, I didn't think about that point.

A did not deliver the cargo until Jan 1 = It was not before Jan 1 that A delivered the cargo. Right?
Frankly speaking, I too tend to use that "before", though I clearly recognise it in English.Emotion: sad I'll have to remember it when translating!

By the way, CalifJim, shall I use AT the forums? I think of the forum as a square, that's why I used IN above.
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I confirm Emotion: smile
By the way, CalifJim, shall I use AT the forums? I think of the forum as a square, that's why I used IN above.


Interesting question!

I hang out in another forum that is more like a cybercafe, so I'd say "in the cafe". But I also hang out in a website that is like a cybercity, so I normally tell people, "I'm at xyz-city."

Perhaps others have a different take on this.
Jacques Cousteau remembered for his 'common touch'

The world shared his underwater adventures
June 25, 1997
Web posted at: 11:22 p.m. EDT (0322 GMT)
PARIS (CNN) -- For millions of people who see the ocean only through the porthole of television, the voice of the sea had a soft French accent.

Jacques-Yves Cousteau, who opened up the mysterious world beneath the sea to millions of landlocked viewers, died Wednesday at age 87.

His widow Francine said he died of a heart attack at 2:30 a.m. at their Paris home while recovering from a respiratory ailment, which had kept him hospitalized for months.

Jacques Cousteau sends a message to young people:
674K/16 sec. small frame QuickTime movie
1.3M/16 sec. large frame QuickTime movie
A memorial service will be held in Notre Dame Cathedral Monday, but the Cousteau Foundation did not say where the explorer would be buried.

Cousteau's 60-year odyssey with the sea -- much of it on his famous boat the Calypso -- was more than a great adventure. He co-invented the aqualung, developed a one-person, jet-propelled submarine and helped start the first manned undersea colonies.

The life of Jacques Cousteau
"When you dive, you begin to feel that you're an angel," the environmentalist and scuba pioneer once said.

But the bespectacled, wiry Cousteau, often wearing his trademark red wool cap, became a household name primarily through his hugely popular television series, "The Undersea World of Jacques Cousteau," and his many documentaries.

'Rare insight and extraordinary spirit'

French President Jacques Chirac mourned Cousteau as an "enchanter," a legend who "represented the defense of nature, modern adventure, invention of the possible."

U.S. President Bill Clinton hailed the explorer as a man of "rare insight and extraordinary spirit."

"While we mourn his death, it is far more appropriate that we celebrate his remarkable life and the gifts he gave to all of us," a written statement from Clinton said.

U.S. Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt praised Cousteau for his common touch.

Jean Michael Cousteau speaks about: his father's message
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Added Ted Turner, vice chairman of Time Warner, which owns CNN: "I think Captain Cousteau might be the father of the environmental movement."

"I think what he will be remembered for most in history is the way he connected with regular people and brought the mystery and beauty of oceans into our personal lives," Babbitt said.

"Capt. Jacques-Yves Cousteau has gone to the Silent World this Wednesday, June 25, 1997"
— The Cousteau Foundation

"The Silent World" was the name of a documentary that won Cousteau the top award at the Cannes Film Festival in 1956. The film was made using skin-diving gear he invented with engineer Emile Gagnan in 1943, freeing divers from heavy helmets and allowing them to float as if in space.

After he led a 1972 voyage to Antarctica, a worldwide television audience saw for the first time the extraordinary beauty of sculptured ice formations under the sea.

Cousteau liked to call himself an "oceanographic technician." But he was also a romantic who once said that for him, water was the ultimate symbol of love.

"The reason why I love the sea, I cannot explain," a chuckling Cousteau once said.

Inauspicious beginnings
Jean Michael Cousteau: his father's legacy
480 K/40 sec. AIFF or WAV sound
Cousteau was born June 11, 1910, in Saint-Andre-de-Cubzac, a small town near Bordeaux. His father was a lawyer who traveled constantly, and the boy was often on the move.

He was a sickly child. Nonetheless, he learned to swim and spent hours at the beach. Formal schooling bored Cousteau; he was expelled from high school for breaking 17 of the school's windows.

His first dive was in Lake Harvey, Vermont, in the summer of 1920. He was spending the season away from New York City, where he and his parents lived briefly.

In 1930, Cousteau passed the highly competitive entrance examinations to enter France's Naval Academy. He served in the navy and entered naval aviation school.

A near-fatal car crash at age 26 denied him his wings, and he was transferred to sea duty, where he swam rigorously to strengthen badly weakened arms.

"Sometimes we are lucky enough to know that our lives have been changed, to discard the old, embrace the new, and run headlong down an immutable course," he wrote. "It happened to me ... on that summer's day, when my eyes were opened to the sea," he wrote later.

'Manfish'

During World War II, Cousteau was involved in espionage activities for the French Resistance. After the war, he was decorated with the Legion of Honor, France's highest honor.

He also made his first underwater films during the war period, and, with engineer Emile Gagnan, perfected the piece of equipment that he said enabled him to be a "manfish" -- the aqualung, an underwater breathing apparatus that supplies oxygen to divers.

In 1950, a millionaire gave Cousteau money to buy the 400-ton former mine-sweeper Calypso. He converted it into a floating laboratory outfitted with the most modern equipment, including underwater television gear.

Jean Michael Cousteau: problems he had with his father
288 K/22 sec. AIFF or WAV sound
In 1952-53 Cousteau took the Calypso to the Red Sea and shot the first color footage ever taken at a depth of 150 feet.

One of his most renowned exploits was the unearthing of the hull of an ancient Greek wine freighter, buried deep in fossil mud 130 feet below the surface off the French coast near Marseilles.

The Calypso also conducted the first offshore oil survey by divers.

He authored countless books, including "The Living Sea" (1963) and "World Without Sun" (1965). A 20-volume encyclopedia, "The Ocean World of Jacques Cousteau," was published in the United States and England.

In 1977, the "Cousteau Odyssey" series premiered on PBS. Seven years later, the "Cousteau Amazon" series premiered on the Turner Broadcasting System. In all, his documentaries have won 40 Emmy nominations.

Explorer, educator

"He will be remembered not only as a pioneer in his time, but as a dominant figure in world history," said President Ronald Reagan in 1985.
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