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If she took the bus everywhere, she must have taken it with her when she went swimming

Oddly enough, and even though we lived in California, I never saw my mother ever getting into any kind of body of water other than a bath. I never saw my mother in a bathing suit.

Dena Jo
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Nonetheless, "uh" is the standard way in the US to ... it. "Uh-huh" isn't quite the same, being a nasal "unh-hunh."

Now I'm confused. What does short-U have to do with it? Wasn't Athel talking about the sound we often represent ... rhotic speakers use 'uh' to represent that sound. Short-U is /V/ unrounded, which is what 'uh' suggests to me.

Referesher time on American pedagogical phonetics:

Long a: bait Short a: bat ow: bout
Long e: beat Short e: bet aw: bought
Long i: bite Short i: bit oy: boy
Long o: boat Short o: bot
Long u: beaut Short u: butt
Long oo: boot Short oo: book
Rhotic ones of us don't make (and therefore don't hear) the distinction you mention. I would have guessed that the end of "Ibeza" ("eye-beeth-er") would have been unrounded. I forget whether it's actually phonemic. Are there actually minimal pairs between the two?

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >To express oneself
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Dena Jo typed thus:
If she took the bus everywhere, she must have taken ... image of woman in swimming pool accompanied by a bus>

Oddly enough, and even though we lived in California, I never saw my mother ever getting into any kind of body of water other than a bath. I never saw my mother in a bathing suit.

It was the most incongruous place to take a bus which I could think of in a hurry.

David
==
Evan Kirshenbaum typed thus:
Similarly, my Mother sometimes spoke of 'salver-latterly' as a form ... I was made something the wiser. 'Mizzle' we all know.

I don't think I've ever heard it pronounced. Nor have I ever bothered to look it up. Until now. Now I don't have to bother learning anything new for the rest of the day.

See, that's what you get for not being taught Latin.

David
==
Good point, "uh" doesn't really appear in traditional Englishwords, does ... it. "Uh-huh" isn't quite the same, being a nasal "unh-hunh."

Now I'm confused. What does short-U have to do with it? Wasn't Athel talking about the sound we often represent ... rhotic speakers use 'uh' to represent that sound. Short-U is /V/ unrounded, which is what 'uh' suggests to me.

I think Athel was talking about a schwa, /@/, as in a common BrE pronunciation of "Ibiza" as /aI'bi:[email protected]/. A non-rhotic British "pronunciation spelling" of that might be "eye-BEETH-er", with "er" for the schwa.
Some Americans, including both Donna and Raymond, seem to think of schwa and "short U" as being, in some sense, the same sound. (At least one American dictionary does this too.) This may be why "uh" gets used freely for both in American pronunciation spellings, but it's confusing for the rest of us.
The sound of "fern" etc. is also often written "er" in non-rhotic British pronunciation spellings (e.g., aiming at a Hull accent, "er ner" for "oh no"). There's some potential for confusion there too.

Jonathan
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Rhotic ones of us don't make (and therefore don't hear) the distinction you mention. I would have guessed that the end of "Ibeza" ("eye-beeth-er") would have been unrounded. I forget whether it's actually phonemic. Are there actually minimal pairs between the two?

Please forget I asked such a stupid question. Of course there are (fun/fern, bud/bird). Or, rather, pretend I asked a more reasonable question, like "Are there minimal pairs in unstressed final position?" Are "tuba" and "tuber" homophones?

Evan Kirshenbaum + HP Laboratories >I like giving talks to industry,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 >because one of the things that I'vePalo Alto, CA 94304 >found is that you really can't
If she took the bus everywhere, she must have taken ... image of woman in swimming pool accompanied by a bus>

Oddly enough, and even though we lived in California, I never saw my mother ever getting into any kind of body of water other than a bath. I never saw my mother in a bathing suit.

I never saw my mother getting into a bath, but I did see her many times in the altogether at the beach (along with many other women). That was in Latvia, when I was around six, or so, during the nude hours set aside for women and children. She was a hot chick, but I didn't realize that at the time, of course. Later I wondered how my dad managed to get her.
Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/
...
I quite understand why rhotic people would find the usual BrE "er" as unsatisfactory for representing a neutral vowel, but where did the AmE "uh" come from? Is there any word in the language where the combination "uh" represents this sound?

It makes sense in an odd sort of way. The attempt is to represent /V/, which is probably the accented vowel closest to a schwa for most rhotic Americans. /V/ is normally represented in English by a "u" followed by a consonant. Well, that will work, as long as the consonant isn't pronounced. But "h" is conveniently not pronounced after a vowel at the end of a word. Viola! I don't know whether it really happened this way.

Jerry Friedman
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I quite understand why rhotic people would find the usual ... in the language where the combination "uh" represents this sound?

It makes sense in an odd sort of way. The attempt is to represent /V/, which is probably the accented ... pronounced after a vowel at the end of a word. Viola! I don't know whether it really happened this way.

The problem I have with it is that it conflicts with the use of vowel + in German orthography to indicate a long vowel, so that represents (eEmotion: smile and (uEmotion: smile. I'm sure I meet this usage more than the American (?) one indicating short vowels.
My solution is, in order of preference:

1. Use IPA (or ASCII IPA)
2. Borrow the schwa symbol while otherwise using ordinary letters
3. Use , if confusion with the "cat" vowel is unlikely. In this case(the pronunciation of Ibiza as /aI'[email protected]/, "eye-BEETH-a" is fairly clear, I think.
Jonathan
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